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#2018994 - 01/22/13 12:24 PM A Steinway Pronounced Dead  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member
RestorerPhil  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
Georgia, USA
The scenario

Church choir room piano
Steinway 45 from 1966
First time I tuned it: 1983 ( and it was bad then)

As I was tuning the piano yesterday, I told the music minister that I would send back a letter regarding possible major work on the piano. When I said that, I was actually thinking of restringing, new hammers, key bushings, damper & tail felt, etc. - a pretty thorough internal rebuild with the option offered to refinish (and maybe the option to break the other work down into two phases).

After I reviewed my customer card notations, then notations written on the piano top beam by other tuners, the reputation of Steinway uprights in general, and my own accumulated experience with them, I had to do a 180. Deep down I had to accept with consternation that a Steinway, a STEINWAY!, probably was not worth the rebuild in this situation: The key issue was that it would need a new sound board and that this would push the cost beyond practicality. On the 45 model, with its blocked-off, and fairly small sound board, and with its tenor end of the treble bridge so close to the bottom of the piano frame, I could not see attempting to doctor the board some way. In fact, I am not sure that even a new board in that design would have the richness of even a Yamaha P22, and surely not a new U-1, U-3, or a Walter 1500, or a Kawai K-5, K-8, etc.

So...
The letter is going out, saying, with explanation of the details, "Regretfully, you should replace it."

Comments?

Last edited by RestorerPhil; 01/22/13 06:12 PM.

Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
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#2019009 - 01/22/13 12:49 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Their grands are amazing. I don't know why the uprights don't have the same reputation.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2019098 - 01/22/13 02:59 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Apr 2009
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Dan Casdorph Offline
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Dan Casdorph  Offline
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Morgantown, West Virginia
"Regrettfully, you should replace it."

I've seen this in new Steinway verticals.


Casdorph Piano Service
Morgantown, WV
www.casdorphpiano.com
All pianos are bald ones.
#2019100 - 01/22/13 03:01 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
pianolive Offline
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pianolive  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 332
Europe
The K upright is a fine instrument.
Some manufacturers make very good uprights, like the Grotrian 124, but a lot cheaper than Steinway.
I don't think the Steinway uprights are not actually popular, they are well build, but compaired to others they seem to be overpriced. The brand name is simply not enough.

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#2019120 - 01/22/13 03:35 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,096
Gene Nelson Offline
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Gene Nelson  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,096
Old Hangtown California
I am in process of restoring a K. It is a solid instrument.
It will be customized however, new belly and there is an easy solution for the end of the tenor bridge - shortened the lowest 5 notes and changed to bi-chords. The new scale looks great on spreadsheet.
If all goes well it will get a new drop in WNG action.
Hybrid block from Ron Nossaman.
These old Steinway's are worth restoring in my opinion.
Convincing the customer is another story.


RPT
PTG Member
#2019122 - 01/22/13 03:36 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 392
Craig Hair Online content
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Craig Hair  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 392
Chesterfield. MA
I'm looking at a repro Steinway brochure from 1888. The extra fancy 56" upright sold for $1,500. That same money could buy a model C. I have six Steinway upr. in my storage space and I have not been able to give them away. Now, if I had six Steinway grands I'd have no problem. My point is, can you imagine the profit margin on the uprights, just to have that name? Pure genius.


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration

Sometimes, all you can hear is the cat snore.
#2019161 - 01/22/13 04:50 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Jan 2011
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Chris Leslie Offline
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Chris Leslie  Offline
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Posts: 1,501
Canberra, ACT, Australia
I think you probably are proposing to over-service this instrument and then pricing yourself out of a job and the life that the instrument deserves.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
#2019271 - 01/22/13 07:46 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: Chris Leslie]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
RestorerPhil Offline
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RestorerPhil  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
Georgia, USA
I actually thought about suggesting less work, but then I reminded myself that this piano has been poor in tone and has been terrible to tune for the entire thirty years since I first "met" it. In other words, it must be one of those pianos that, as Dan Casdorph was indicating, could have been condemned even when it was new.

I think that the fast action and light hammers in the Steinway uprights can exaggerate the poor tone that comes from lack of down bearing. In this case you have a Steinway that sounds like a Kimball studio - the ones with the laminated boards - except it doesn't have the volume of one of those Kimballs.

It's a shame to see the great construction details and excellent materials in a fine brand name piano, and yet realize that its sound is no better than the Baldwin entry-level spinet that the same church has in another room in the church complex. New hammers? Sure, they could spend a $1K and more for that and still have a poor sound. New Strings? Well, yes, they would help a little. Re-design the tenor bridge and put in a new board? Well, of course, then it might really be a great piano. (It would be better to put that sort of effort into a K model, for sure!) The cost, however? It would be more than a new Walter 1500, more than a Yamaha U-3, and could approach the cost of a Mason & Hamlin 50. The music minister mentioned electronic keyboards in our conversation that day, so does that portend them spending big bucks on the Steinway?

This isn't a condemnation of all Steinway uprights (even though I have rarely seen a newer one that lived up to the deserved reputation of the grands), but this one model 45 has really been a dog. The other Steinway uprights which I have rebuilt came out well, even with no serious redesign or sound board replacement, but they were much older models and were larger.


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
#2019507 - 01/23/13 08:36 AM Steinway May Rise from the Dead! [Re: Chris Leslie]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
RestorerPhil Offline
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RestorerPhil  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
Georgia, USA
Okay, OKAY! So I am vacillating a bit. Maybe some Aussie Angst is getting the best of me, Chris.

My new approach to the church hinges on this paragraph from my letter:

Quote
The work below is the first stage of a two-part plan to restore the piano. This work list will make some difference in sound. This first work is needed, regardless of whether you ever do phase two. The second phase would yield a dramatic change in tone and volume.


Basically, the overall letter tells them:
The replacement cost of a new Steinway 1098 Walnut which pianobuyer.com says is $27,600, the cost of the first repair phase, and the rough range of the total as a percentage of new cost (so as to allow for price changes, should that second phase be slow in coming.) The ultimate need for string and soundboard work is emphasized and left for phase two. They are free to decide to do it all at once, of course.

This may not raise this Steinway studio from the dead, but it leaves the choice of resurrection in their hands without making unrealistic promises. The only down side is that I have to deal with its tuning in the meantime.

Oh well, it's a livin'! Ain't it? (And dealing with ornery pianos is part of it.)


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
#2019938 - 01/23/13 09:23 PM Re: Steinway May Rise from the Dead! [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,558
BDB Offline
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BDB  Offline
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Oakland
Without being able to visit this particular Steinway, all I can say is that the design has proved satisfactory for many owners. That being the case, the biggest variable in Steinways is almost always the hammer voicing. Steinway hammers generally need to be voiced up, and different techniques for doing that can give a lot of different results.


Semipro Tech
#2509599 - 02/11/16 08:24 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
RestorerPhil Offline
Full Member
RestorerPhil  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 246
Georgia, USA

shocked

Who would have thought it possible? (Not me and not the choir director!)

Here we are years after I started this thread, and, to the amazement of the music minister of this church and mine...
The church approved the total rebuild of the choir room Steinway 45. This news was so shocking that I decided to dig out my password for this forum and pose some pertinent questions.

Question 1
The hammer bore angle of checks out to be 84-83 degrees. When in contact with the strings, the hammers seem to be striking downward by about 2 degrees. Has anyone changed the bore angle to 85-86 degrees, (and shorted the hammer shanks slightly so that the strike points stay the same) to achieve a true perpendicular strike ?

Question 2
Has anyone had good success rescaling the Model 45? (Any slight speaking length changes made in the note 71- note 84 range?)

Question 3
Beyond that, has anyone done a shortened version of the tenor section via an auxiliary bridge, so as to connect with the more flexible area of the sound board?

GAME ON !


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
#2509613 - 02/11/16 09:37 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 561
Ed A. Hall Offline
500 Post Club Member
Ed A. Hall  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 561


You might consider redesigning the soundboard utilizing Del Fandrich's patented Z-bar soundboard design.

https://www.google.com/patents/US53...BEUrqkF4HG9gS35YCQCg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA

#2509626 - 02/11/16 10:57 PM Re: A Steinway Pronounced Dead [Re: RestorerPhil]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,420
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,420
Seattle, WA USA
The way the hammers are angled helps produce a center of gravity on the hammer assembly that helps return the hammer from the string, so I would stay with it.

I suggest making sure the V-bar is shaped to a true V shape and the contact point for the string should be no more than 1mm wide. Also make sure the top treble pressure bars enable clamping the strings over the V-bar at the maximum possible angle that can be achieved without having the strings actually touch the plate surface on the way to the tuning pins. You can grind the feet of the pressure bar to increase the bearing angle.

If you are putting new caps on the bridge you could investigate making sure the speaking lengths are as long as possible from about note 80 to 55. Don't set 88 longer than 53mm. What I do is set 88 at 52 and find a semitone multiplier, (1.055 is a good start), that gets you speaking lengths as long as the bridge will allow in the top treble section.

I wouldn't do any tenor bridge modifications. The expense for the gain is ridiculous. Research using Paulello wire and Pure Sound wire in the low break point section above the wound strings. Google "Hybrid Wire Scales" and see what comes up. I have a short paper on it I could mail you if you want.

Hope this helps.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com

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