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#2018541 - 01/21/13 07:02 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
They just look a long way out of the key from here that's all.

Usually with old materials capstans are out a long way but with new whippen heel cloth and other cloths in the keyboard they have to be wound back in.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
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#2019498 - 01/23/13 09:12 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Del]  
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Roy123 Offline
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Roy123  Offline
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Massachusetts
Originally Posted by Del
After all, NY Steinways for several decades were built with angled capstans driving wippens with square capstan blocks.

ddf


...and I've also seen NY Steinways built with vertical capstans and wippens that had the heel-felt slot set at an angle as was appropriate for the no-longer used angled capstans. It makes one wonder...

#2019512 - 01/23/13 09:45 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Roy123]  
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RestorerPhil Offline
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RestorerPhil  Offline
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Georgia, USA
That day the working guy said,

Quote
Dang it! If they get me the wrong parts, then I will use the wrong parts. Nobody does nuttin right around here these days. If you ask me........


(It was one of those days - maybe a Monday.) mad


Lavender Piano Services
Established 1977
Tuning, Concert Maintenance,
Rebuilding & Restoration
#2019569 - 01/23/13 11:15 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Posts: 413
woodfab Offline
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Stoneham, MA
What about the old saying "if it don't fit force it"

So far the only things I had to change was to remove the hammer rest and remold the whippen flange rail.
I didn't have to move the let-off button rail.
I haven't leveled the keys yet. but so far it appears to be working out.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
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#2019618 - 01/23/13 01:12 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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rysowers Offline
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rysowers  Offline
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Olympia, WA
Looking good! What are going to call your new hybrid?


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2019631 - 01/23/13 01:29 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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BDB Offline
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Oakland
A Steinball? I once used some Yamaha parts in a Chickering, which then became a Chickaha or a Yammering.


Semipro Tech
#2019633 - 01/23/13 01:30 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Vancouver B. C. Canada

Keinway or Stimball.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2019638 - 01/23/13 01:34 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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TunerJeff Offline
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TunerJeff  Offline
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Oregon Coast
Steinball?

Kimway?

Steinkimway?

Keinball?

Kimsteinballway?

I have enjoyed this thread. Interesting. I'd be curious about the touchweight with the new parts. Heavier? Lighter? It seems that the parts will work...with the modifications on the rail and a washer under the let-off rail...but what does it feel like?

Curious minds,
want to know!
Smiling,
I remain,


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
#2019749 - 01/23/13 05:33 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Posts: 413
woodfab Offline
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Stoneham, MA
I kind of like "Kimsteinballway"

I'm planing on using Kranich & Bach legs so I'll have to call
a (Kranich & Steinballway)

One problem I have now is that there's no strings in the piano yet.

This is my first piano project to come this close to playable.

Thank you guys for all the help over the last few years.

Larry Buck was interested in seeing the pin-block drill in action so I haven't drilled all the holes yet.

I have to hand it to you guys, rebuilding pianos takes a lot of knowledge, patients, and is quite time consuming.
I find myself CUTTING CORNERS.
[Linked Image]


Last edited by woodfab; 01/23/13 09:26 PM.

Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
#2019919 - 01/23/13 09:57 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
Joined: Jun 2003
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BDB Offline
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BDB  Offline
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Oakland
We would all cure more pianos if we had more patients. I guess we just have to be patient!


Semipro Tech
#2019960 - 01/23/13 11:17 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
Joined: Aug 2011
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Dave B Offline
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Dave B  Offline
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Philadelphia area
Wondering how you 'remolded' the flange rail?


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#2020108 - 01/24/13 06:08 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Pretoria, South Africa
Dan,

Are you a machinist in one of your other lives? I see a Hardinge label and a lathe in the background...


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#2020190 - 01/24/13 09:29 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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woodfab Offline
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Stoneham, MA
"Wondering how you 'remolded' the flange rail?"

I traced the outline of the profile I wanted on the end of the rail and then made about six cuts with a table saw and a little rounding with a file.

[Linked Image]


I was a R&D machinist for ten years and when I left that job I was going crazy without access to a machine shop so I ended setting up my own.


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
#2020255 - 01/24/13 11:46 AM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Posts: 128
Tim Sullivan Offline
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Muskoka, Ontario
Brilliant. I'm sure there are a lot of professional piano techs out there who appreciate and envy your resourcefulness and craftsmanship. I love your tuning pin boring setup.
Tim


I'm a piano tech and dealer in Central Ontario.
www.huntsvillepiano.ca
#2020352 - 01/24/13 02:22 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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rysowers Offline
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Olympia, WA
Ditto! I'm sure most of us when benefit a lot from Machinist training. Bill Spurlock was a machinist before he became a piano technician.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2020375 - 01/24/13 02:54 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Olek Offline
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France
It is very well done and installed.

at last the parts seem to fit.

usual center to jack distance is 99 mm

jack height seem to fit (usually 49 mm)

I would have wait to have the strings mounted to glue the hammers, because strike line depends of them, you may have to change some part and glue at a differnt dimension on the shank, if it is better for tone



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2020408 - 01/24/13 03:34 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: Olek]  
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woodfab Offline
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Stoneham, MA
The hammers and shanks were assembled in Larry Buck's shop on the same model Kimball. For some reason they decided not to continue with the rebuild.

I ended up with the piano, I put the action in my shop and the rest of the piano in another basement.

Well a few months later the basement flooded with 20" of water.
For some reason after a day and a half sitting in water the piano had some major veneer and glue-joint problems.
So I had to put it asleep.

I held the hammers side by side with the ones I pulled out of this Kimball and as far as I could see they are a perfect match.

Last edited by woodfab; 01/24/13 03:35 PM.

Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
#2020573 - 01/24/13 06:02 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: rysowers]  
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kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by rysowers
Ditto! I'm sure most of us when benefit a lot from Machinist training. Bill Spurlock was a machinist before he became a piano technician.


We have a machinist in our chapter. We get all kinds of cool stuff he designs and builds.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#2020715 - 01/24/13 09:38 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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Craig Hair Offline
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Chesterfield. MA
I would note that the kimball wipp, by using the silk cords eliminates the friction butterfly springs create in the groove in the balancier. I don't know if this compensates for the compond loading of a butterfly spring in repetition, but I've never found a kimball style wipp bound up with a big blob of graphite grease either.


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
#2020741 - 01/24/13 10:11 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 413
woodfab Offline
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Stoneham, MA
Yes Craig I appreciate your reply. My original questions was "Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens"
My thought are that Steinway whippens cost about twice as much as Kimball whippens doesn't this apply with you get what you pay for.
Also I wanted to make this action feel more like the higher end pianos feel.
One of the reasons I'm attempting to change this action is that I had the unbelievable opportunity to play $50,000 to $150,000 pianos and I'm on a quest to get there.
I hate to admit it but I have long way to go.


Dan (Piano Tinkerer)
#2020779 - 01/24/13 11:13 PM Re: Ar Steinway whippens beter than Kimball whippens [Re: woodfab]  
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Craig Hair Offline
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Chesterfield. MA
It may be a long road, but you seem to be digging in with some determination.
The one advantage that the Steinway wipp may offer is the room to move the capstan closer to the jack. Action work is essentially advanced teeter-totter theory. How do we lift the big kid with the little kid? Moving the capstan toward the balance rail is essentially like moving the big kid closer to the fulcrum. The little kid gains an advantage. This also means that the capstan is pressin farther out on the wippen body, it lengthens that lever and gives an advantage to the key that is trying to lift it. Two advantages from one change.
I mention this because you are working on a very short piano. In the quest to make a small piano, many makers resort to taking an inch or two off of the length of the keys, without making any changes to the action stack. This robs the key of its leverage against the action. This in turn gives a heavy touch, to be lessened by the addition of leads, which in turn increases the action's inertia. Most high end pianos avoid this.
You might also want to compare the weight of your hammers with the original. That one gram at the hammer equals 5, 6, or 7 grams at the key rule can get out of controll fast.

P.S. I have a beautiful set of fancy Kranich legs if you want them


Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
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