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Hi! Frequent lurker here.

Do you all think it matters to a toddler whether he hears in-tune music vs. flat music? Does it impact the toddlers singing voice?

I love the size of the keys, the substantial feel of, and the deep sound of my 1910 upright. It is in terrible condition though, and it sounds flat, even for the few minutes it stays in tune after the tuning.

To voice it or fix any of it up would cost more than its "worth." I have a digital piano too, but its not as much fun to play. I wonder about an out of tune piano's effect on my child's future singing voice (or more likely- her lack of). Any thoughts?

Out of tune pianos are detrimental to musical enjoyment and development, particularly with respect to ear training (which is important). Children (and adults) are also more likely to quit if the piano sounds bad. Sorry to be blunt, but if your upright is not capable of being tuned, and/or needs other expensive repairs, it should be disposed of.

Beethoven is absolutely correct. Do not compromise your child's musical development and appreciation by going cheap.

Let's not condemn the piano without seeing it. I've saved many old pianos with CA glue, an inexpensive repair.

I'd be cool with that if we were talking about a 40 or 50 year old piano in otherwise decent working order. A 1910 upright in "terrible" shape? Not a chance.

Well boo. I really loooooove playing this piano in particular. My piano tuner showed me the whip-its are all slack and the felt is all soft. It only stays in tune about 4 months.

I don't like playing other pianos or keyboards as much as this one. Only uprights have the big keys my fingers love, and uprights are either old or too expensive .

I just treated the pin block of my 100 year old Conover Cable upright with the CA glue; the pins that were a little loose are definitely tighter and she is holding a tuning nicely. I'm glad I was able to add a little more life to the old girl.

Rick

To answer the original question - Yes, it could be detrimental. Imagine a toddler singing "Twinkle, Twinkle" based on the pitches from a piano which is wildly out of tune. There are the instances when he is hearing more than one pitch from any given key. (poor unisons) He won't know it's wrong, but it is the only reference he has so he learns that it is "right."

Our sense of pitch and interval (western) is learned at a very early age. We learn a scale based on 1/2 steps. Other cultures use drastically different scales and intervals.

It is the development of the ear, with proper references, which allows singing "on pitch."

Oops! - Sorry. I now see that your child is a "she" and not a "he."

Thank you for your wonderful responses!

Despite the fact I wish out of tune pianos did NOT affect singing voices, I am glad to find some answers.

I've been looking everywhere to find out the answer to this question. I didn't know what resources to look in!

Thank you!

I agree with everyone else who has posted that out of tune pianos are detrimental to musical development.

However I do want to point out an important distinction: it's her ear training and ability to hear and match pitches, etc. that can be damaged.

When a singer talks about damaging their voice they usually mean the actual physical instrument - the vocal chords etc. (I'm not a professional singer). I don't see any reason why an out of tune piano would damage the voice in this way.

It is a horrible thing to see as a technician a piano that is 2 keys flat of pitch with a parent that says "it's good enough for my child to practice on." Trying to convince a person like that is almost like talking to a brick wall in many cases. Their ears are closed and their mind is made up before it even came out of their mouth.

It's nice to read that someone cares.

Something to consider though is all instruments of that era will be flat. If you get a Clarinet from 1910 it will also sound flat. You had that international pitch ( improved scale) to deal with. The big antique pianos sound great if they can hold A440 and dont have clicky, squeaky actions. One of the secrets to making them sound great is new bass strings, if everything else isn't shot.

It depends on what kind of music you are playing too. If you like die hard classical you might not like an old upright. If you are Alan Jackson playing in the back of a pickup truck then it might be perfect

I grew up with an old Brödrene Hals piano, out of tune and heavy birdcage action. But, it was all we had. And I learned to play without a teacher, I sing on pitch and now cringe by the sound of an out-of-tune note. I guess our inborn talents are stronger than any old piano. In or out of tune.

>Do you all think it matters to a toddler whether he hears in-tune music vs. flat music? Does it impact the toddlers singing voice?

First, I'm not a teacher and no expert on this. But I don't see much evidence for above remarks that "Out of tune pianos are detrimental to musical enjoyment and development".

I agree that the piano intervals need to be in tune.

But the absolute pitch is much less relevant IMHO. I think it's much more important that you like the sound and that the intervals are tuned properly than that the absolute pitch is correct.

I heard that toddlers have a chance to learn absolute pitch. And out-of-tune pianos might prevent that from developing. But I'm not so convinced that absolute pitch is such a bless. In practice, many pianos are a bit off; orchestras pick a higher pitch (A443); old instruments and baroque orchestras pick A420 to A425. In the past concert pitch was A430.6. Some even reported A370. Händels tuning fork was A421.5.

Well, as you said, you're not an expert. It is important for budding musicians to develop a good sense of tone, which can't be done if the piano is out of tune, particularly if the unisons are out. Also, kids don't enjoy playing if the piano sounds bad or doesn't play right. I see it all the time.




If you're a pianist, it is perhaps less relevant, but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant. If you're a clarinetist, floutist, or a singer, yeah, absolute pitch is pretty darn important if you're playing with a piano, and these musicians will complain if the piano significantly deviates from concert pitch.

Yes, it matters a great deal. Toddlers tell us all the time in schools "my piano doesn't sound like my piano teachers piano. It sounds terrible but my parents don't care because they can't hear it." You don't know how many times I hear that in the course of one year. Dozens and dozens and dozens of times.

Yamaha did an extensive study back in the 70's I believe it was and they found that badly out of tune and badly out of pitch pianos, were the NUMBER ONE CAUSE of kids no longer wanting to take lessons. Very, VERY close behind it, almost a number one as well, were pianos that played horribley. Sticking keys. Regulation was way off meaning the touch was all screwy. One note played, the next one didn't. One note played easily, the next note played hard. There is no way that anyone can learn how to properly play on a piano that is A. Out of tune. B. Off from pitch. C plays terribly. D. has notes that do not work.

Yes, there have been MANY studies done to prove this to be true and we as technicians see it on a regular basis and it is true.

There are many good reasons for keeping a piano in good playing and sounding condition. However, I do not believe that an out of tune piano impacts children's singing.

Oh, if we could only blame all the out of tune singing in the world on poorly tuned childhood pianos!

Tuning a piano 3 or 4 times a year is about right. It might not be all that bad, and CA glue might help.

The resulting market value will never justify the money you'd put into repairs, but if you love it and want to keep it for a long time, get a second opinion from someone who rebuilds pianos. The decision to junk it should only be based on the opinion of someone who knows how to fix it and has seen it in person.