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Joined: Apr 2009
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Larry invited my brother, Dan, my son, David, and myself, to come up to Lowell and play the Steingraeber.
It was unvelievable! The warm tones and feelings came out so easily. The new carbon composit sound board seems like a great new invention. It sounds great and it will probably last forever. The sound was big and wholesome. It was so enjoyable to play this great instrument.
Thanks Larry,
Sheldon Powers
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I've been to see these pianos at Hurstwood Farm Pianos,here in Kent UK.
I was with my friend who is a fantastic pianist and I actually had to move away so that non could see that the sound was bringing tears to my eyes!!
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I had a conversation with my friend who studies material science few years ago. He said the composite material (probably the carbon or poly) has superior acoustic quality compare to wood, and can be used in violin or piano.
Thats from a pure scientific point of view.
I guess while it removes the prestine from tradtional wood manufacturer, its more sustainable and cheaper to make.
PLEYEL P124
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I look forward to playing one someday.
I haven't heard a composite stringed instrument that's impressed me yet, but I'm sure Steingraeber wouldn't put out a piano that didn't sound great.
In the meantime, I'm confident I can milk my wooden soundboard for the years I'll need...
![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/full/15854.png) "Don't let the devil fool you - Here comes a dove; Nothing cures like time and love." -- Laura Nyro
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I wish more concert pianists would play Steingraeber - even if only occasionally - in concert and for recordings. There are quite a few CDs around using Grotrian-Steinweg or Sauter, (and of course lots and lots using Fazioli, Bosendorfer or Bluthner) but only two or three that use a Steingraeber. Yet from my limited experience, Steingraeber is right up there with the best of the great European pianos.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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...I guess while it removes the prestine from tradtional wood manufacturer, its more sustainable and cheaper to make. Cheaper to make? Then why are carbon fibre boards found only on the most expensive pianos, and wood is used by all other brands, from the lowest entry level on up?
JG
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I look forward to playing one someday.
I haven't heard a composite stringed instrument that's impressed me yet, but I'm sure Steingraeber wouldn't put out a piano that didn't sound great.
In the meantime, I'm confident I can milk my wooden soundboard for the years I'll need... We have a Steingraeber Phoenix 212 here. You are certainly welcome to stop by and play it ... presuming you would be in the Boston area. All are welcome to stop by and play it.
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it could also be the cutting edge technology instead of the actual manufacuturing cost. Just my guess.
PLEYEL P124
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The manufacturing cost is higher.
Considering the "Art" of piano building;
How does the carbon fiber panel behave compared to the spruce?
What needs to be done to insure it is a very successful musical instrument?
Considering the uniqueness of the carbon fiber sound board in a piano, how do you insure it excels compared to wood?
Considering the very few that are made, what is the impact of this considerable time expended on each instrument?
Oh, and, edge tools are quickly worn on the carbon fiber as it is very hard.
Having been to Steingraeber in Germany, I have seen first hand the work that goes into each Phoenix.
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Larry invited my brother, Dan, my son, David, and myself, to come up to Lowell and play the Steingraeber.
It was unvelievable! The warm tones and feelings came out so easily. The new carbon composit sound board seems like a great new invention. It sounds great and it will probably last forever. The sound was big and wholesome. It was so enjoyable to play this great instrument.
Thanks Larry,
Sheldon Powers Pianoshell, There is a big tonal difference between a Phoenix piano (made by Steingraeber) which is the piano that you had seen and a Steingraeber piano. In order to highlight the separation, Udo Steingraeber considered at one point to remove the Steingraeber name from the fallboard and instead use only the Phoenix name. Did the piano you tried say 'Steingraeber' on the fallboard, Phoenix Steingraeber or only Phoenix? Perhaps you or Larry could relate. While I believe all pianos made by Steingraeber are wonderful, the tonal departure is so great between a Steingraeber and a Carbon Fiber soundboard Phoenix that you'd be a miss if you thought that by trying a Phoenix you experienced the tone of a Steingraeber. If you'd like to try Steingraeber pianos there is only one place to do so in the North Eastern US...which is here, at Allegro Pianos...so please don't be confused. Thanks, Ori
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - CT / NYC area. One can usually play at our showroom: Bluthner, Steingraeber, Estonia, Haessler, Sauter, Kawai, Steinway, Bosendorfer and more. www.allegropianos.com
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Joined: May 2008
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Ori knows best. I purchased my Steingraeber from him last year and he explained the difference between the two and guided me to the right decision. it sounds spectacular and just gets better .
Robert
rjc
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Larry invited my brother, Dan, my son, David, and myself, to come up to Lowell and play the Steingraeber.
It was unvelievable! The warm tones and feelings came out so easily. The new carbon composit sound board seems like a great new invention. It sounds great and it will probably last forever. The sound was big and wholesome. It was so enjoyable to play this great instrument.
Thanks Larry,
Sheldon Powers Pianoshell, There is a big tonal difference between a Phoenix piano (made by Steingraeber) which is the piano that you had seen and a Steingraeber piano. In order to highlight the separation, Udo Steingraeber considered at one point to remove the Steingraeber name from the fallboard and instead use only the Phoenix name. Did the piano you tried say 'Steingraeber' on the fallboard, Phoenix Steingraeber or only Phoenix? Perhaps you or Larry could relate. While I believe all pianos made by Steingraeber are wonderful, the tonal departure is so great between a Steingraeber and a Carbon Fiber soundboard Phoenix that you'd be a miss if you thought that by trying a Phoenix you experienced the tone of a Steingraeber. If you'd like to try Steingraeber pianos there is only one place to do so in the North Eastern US...which is here, at Allegro Pianos...so please don't be confused. Thanks, Ori As I'm sure you know, originally, Steingraeber-Phoenix pianos had spruce soundboards and standard Renner actions. The tonal differences between these and the non-Phoenix versions were quite similar. Then, carbon fiber soundboards were being installed, starting with the 170, I believe; even these, I felt were pretty similar... not the same, of course, but similar. With the introduction of the WNG action, I can see where people would start to really notice a difference in character, but I still think it sounds like a Steingraeber. I do know that Hurstwood Farm is using the Phoenix name on pianos where the acoustic body is supplied by Steingraeber, at a significantly lower price, but these pianos are only available there, I believe.
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It seems to be getting only more confusing. Is Phoenix a brand separate from Steingraeber (made by Steingraeber but not a Steingraeber brand)?
Also, is the common thread through the Phoenix brand that those instruments are only available with carbon fiber soundboards and Phoenix bridges. If I wanted a solid soundboard and a Phoenix bridge, that piano would be called Steingraeber, not Phoenix?
Or, is ANY piano with a Phoenix bridge called a Phoenix?
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Joined: Jun 2011
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I had occasion to look at this Steingraeber, and its carbon-fiber soundboard. What surprised me the most was to see how much wood is employed in its construction. From above, the carbon fiber panel is all that is visible. From below, it is clear that the ribs are wooden and that there is at least a veneer of wood between the ribs and the carbon-fiber sheet itself. There was no way to tell how thick that wood veneer was. From below it looked like a normal soundboard. So I'm not sure how much the carbon-fiber is actually involved.
Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Chesterfield, MA
Conservative Piano Restoration
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I had occasion to look at this Steingraeber, and its carbon-fiber soundboard. What surprised me the most was to see how much wood is employed in its construction. From above, the carbon fiber panel is all that is visible. From below, it is clear that the ribs are wooden and that there is at least a veneer of wood between the ribs and the carbon-fiber sheet itself. There was no way to tell how thick that wood veneer was. From below it looked like a normal soundboard. So I'm not sure how much the carbon-fiber is actually involved. I may be wrong about this, but I seem to recall reading that a carbon-fiber only board was tried and found to produce too bright a sound. Laminating a thin wooden layer on to the carbon layer apparently provided a warmer tone. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me.
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It was my understanding, from Udo Steingraeber, that the wood veneer option is purely for cosmetic purposes, in case you feel the black color of the carbon fiber is too nontraditional for you.
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It was my understanding, from Udo Steingraeber, that the wood veneer option is purely for cosmetic purposes, in case you feel the black color of the carbon fiber is too nontraditional for you. This is my understanding as well. I've seen them with and without the veneer. It doesn't make any difference in the sound.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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It seems to be getting only more confusing. Is Phoenix a brand separate from Steingraeber (made by Steingraeber but not a Steingraeber brand)? There's the Phoenix System, which is the bridge agraffes. Phoenix pianos are Hurstwood Farm's house brand, which uses acoustic bodies from Steingraeber, but the pianos are finished at Hurstwood, and sold for a lower price. Also, is the common thread through the Phoenix brand that those instruments are only available with carbon fiber soundboards and Phoenix bridges. If I wanted a solid soundboard and a Phoenix bridge, that piano would be called Steingraeber, not Phoenix?
Or, is ANY piano with a Phoenix bridge called a Phoenix?
At least at one time, Steingraeber-Phoenix pianos were available without carbon fiber boards, too (in the beginning, that was the only option, and then they started putting CF boards in the 170). Phoenix pianos are essentially the same as the equivalent Steingraeber models, but you can only get them with CF boards and WNG action. Any piano that is entirely made by Steingraeber, in Bayreuth, will be either Steingraeber (if it doesn't have agraffes), or Steingraeber-Phoenix.
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You are correct it is the technology.
On my visit to Hurstwood farm it was explained that they rely entirely on a UK company which deals exclusively in engineering carbon fiber "items" for the Min of Defence;F1 motorcars; and the aerospace industry i.e. they donot make the sound boards on site.
They also had the basics for a baby grand where carbofiber tubes took the place of the normal cast steel frame. This unit was lying on a work bench but was playable - using surprise! surprise! a WNG carbonfiber action.
They would not say but I think in the Phonix models the cf sound board has some sort of printed paper overlay to make it look like wood !!
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They would not say but I think in the Phonix models the cf sound board has some sort of printed paper overlay to make it look like wood !!
It's veneer.
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