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I don't do restaurants, but in general, you have to schmooze with the people. Can't get action just from emailing.

And then of course, they'll be asking if you can draw a crowd. Catch 22 sometimes.

Here a lot of jazz groups do the "free" tip-only shows. Never done that. Not sure it's worth it lugging equipment around.

Originally I had planned to go into some places to try and talk to a manager, but I figured I'd try the easy way first. Probably won't work so I guess I'll hit the pavement. You're thinking about which places may want live music sounds about right to me. In all the groups I played with in college, where someone else in the band was getting the gigs, we most often played in places that fit your description. I guess I may just have to try to hustle a spot at a place that already has music. I'm thinking that will be tough though, with a group like mine... especially to get anything more than a one time shot.

I like the idea of offering a freebie to get the ball rolling and I brought this up with my drummer and bass player. While they didn't hate the idea, they seemed to be in favor of avoiding it. Both of them are concerned about only getting a gig that will pay. They don't want to play for tips, food, or drinks. Personally, I don't really care right now. I'd just like to play and get back in the swing of things. I guess I could pay my bass player and drummer for freebie gigs, but that might get expensive.

We did a casual tonight -- Instrumental quartet and from just this performance we got booked for 2 more gigs, including a Ball. And who said there was no audience for Jazz?

What do you mean a Ball ? Do you mean those swing dance halls ?

I'm really excited because I just tried the g-verb (I still can't get over the name hehe) in Audacity and it made a huge difference.

Did you see this ? I tried the Quick fix 40 sq m room option.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091014144343AAFncbH

Congrats JW, that's the best feeling!
So what's going to be the repertoire for the ball?

>>Both of them are concerned about only getting a gig that will pay. They don't want to play for tips, food, or drinks.
Scott. I agree with them. You should never play for free. There's no other profession where you do freebies.
Ask you accountant: "This year free, next year I pay, ok?"
Know what I mean?
Even if that works, the guy's never going to pay you much. It will be another excuse. Bring customers, then you'll make more. Screw that. Now you gotta tell your friend to pay 5 times what you're making ?

IMHO, price is the best way for people to judge worthiness. Think wine. How good was that wine? $300 a bottle? Best wine I've ever had. It was only $10 at Safeway (not in Maryland ) How else are you going to judge wine? (take it from the french man

Same. This isn't on the dance portion. There's some auctions and dinner, We play through that. The exposure here will be huge since there's hundreds of people.

People were dancing on our swing tunes.

>>. There's some auctions and dinner, We play through that.
This is my absolute favorite kind of gig. Enjoy that!

The gig the following day (you checking my online gig schedule knotty?), is another huge event with hundreds of people. Full gig price on that and we are a quintet. I realize the events I'm getting are rare but it's all people who know me personally.

Yeah, I agree. I don't really want to play for free but a part of me would rather do that than not play at all. I just need to be patient and keep looking for something. I also have to be more persistent I think. I'll never get a gig if all I do is send out emails and wait for someone to respond. I'll have to make calls, and follow up calls, and follow up follow up calls. And take what we can get, even if it's not a great paying weekly gig. Even a one time spot at a good venue would be good.

After listening to scep's demo, I'm wondering if we shouldn't redo our's. I think we could put more stuff with a groove on there to get a better connection with the listener. That way we might get in the door somewhere... then we can play all the straight ahead stuff. It seems to me that people are more responsive to music that they aren't as familiar with when it's live, but not so much when it's recorded.

I think that both Knotty and JW are outliers, so to speak. Where I live (a jazz university town) there are so many bands and individuals vying for live playing space that if you want to be playing in public you need to consider the competition, and the venues booking that competition. I know of only one bar in town that still pays union scale, and the musicians that play there only work about 6 times a year at that venue because there are so many who can play there.
The only other place (called the Jazz Cellar) books the same band maybe 2 times a year at the most, unless you've made a special arrangement with the owner (read: play for door).
The other places that have jazz are door and tips, and there's only two or three of these.
So if your situation is similar to mine Scott, I'd reconsider the advice of those that are in a different city that happen to have personal connections/an established name with a decent website in order to get gigs. Unless of course you'd rather not play in public at all. I've avoided playing in public for the last 3 years because I didn't want to go through the hassle of having to compete to play at places that don't value the music I have to offer. Well, now I want to, and am willing to prostitute myself for a while, and my band mates are thankfully on the same page.

As for the wine analogy, some of the better bottles I've had are under $20. One called 'Chat en Oueff' from the Chateauneuf region, but not allowed to use that designation tastes very close to the $50 bottle equivalent.
And sometimes the expensive bottles of wine are only expensive because they are exclusive, but not necessarily better tasting than their less expensive counterparts.

Maybe. I'd at least lose the bass and drum solo bits. Not to say they're not good players, but seriously, you're not going to sell yourself by giving equal time to those guys on the demo. I'm actually further tweaking my demo to be a better, smaller package that can be listened to in under 5 or 6 minutes. That way if they don't like the first tune, the second comes within 30-40 seconds or so and they can still be engaged.

>> Scott, I'd reconsider the advice of those that are in a different city that happen to have personal connections/an established name
I agree. Don't listen to me. I hardly get any gigs myself. I've played with a lot of people and get along with all, and in the end, I get a lot of calls that way. There also isn't that much competition. JW seems to be a much better business man than I am. I'm just going with the flow

>>As for the wine analogy,
What I meant by that is that most people don't have a clue about wine. And price certainly is the best way to measure quality. There's this Columbo episode and Columbo asks the murdered how to tell good wine from bad. The guy says "The price".
For music it's the same. I have a good friend that's an event planner. She hires bands all the time. I say, how do you know if they're good?
"Well, they're nice, dress nice and show up on time!". That's the person actually hiring the band...

So you're better off sucking at piano but looking good, than the other way around --

When you're dealing with folks like that, I'm almost convinced that if they interview 2 bands, one takes $800 for a quartet, and the other takes $200, it's hard not to think that the expensive band is better. To me that's just human nature.

Those places where I play for tips, you almost always end up playing with musicians that aren't super exciting anyway. And they people don't show up, cancel last minute... See what I mean.

But yes not too much competition here, and lots and lots of work.

I am moving to where you live.

Dave,

You're welcome anytime

Thanks for the advice... well taken .

I never played any gigs while I was in Maryland, but if that scene is anything like the teaching scene, you should have a waiting list of people wanting you to play!

Funny thing is that we are actually competing with ourselves. I'm not playing anywhere, but my bass player and drummer both play with other groups at several venues in the area, some quite regularly.


Good ideas. I'm going to talk all this over with the other guys next rehearsal.

Well it's true that I'm a businessman. So naturally it applies to running a band. By rights, I'm obviously not the top player but I'm the one who gets the gigs and talks to the audience and I start to get a feel of what they want and fashion the band and set list accordingly.

Mind you, I wouldn't be successful in a jazz trio setting. I think there's not enough excitement.

The problem is the larger the group, the harder it is to make money. And you can really run in place here if you start taking gigs for free for $20 a head. Mind you, I'm not in this for the money. My main concern is that the band gets paid and that they respect us enough to pay us.

Am I an outlier? (are we back to that discussion again?) I don't think so. Los Angeles is a big place. But most musicians don't know how to market themselves. My only secret is that I know a LOT of people and I talk to organizations, churches, etc. There is NO money to be made off restaurants/bars.

My bass player does 150 gigs a year. Most of those are for tips (which sometimes = nothing). Now maybe 40-50 of those gigs are with me and I always pay him. The point here is that he's busy pro himself and he doesn't know how to get paid regularly either.

BTW - our idea of what "entertaining" is may be different from the audience. For example, I already said this but groove is more important than chops. Simple gets more action than complex.

Miles Davis gets more attention than Charlie Parker. Just sayin...

So true. People are generally pretty lazy/stupid when it comes to decision making. The easiest way generally yields the most mediocre results.

Around here the people that hang out at the places where the musicians are playing for tips are usually other really great musicians that are also wanting to play --anywhere-- for tips or otherwise.

But what you said above about dressing well and presenting well go a long way in any profession. What separates those that get the gigs here and those that don't often times can be a difference of appearance and reliability.

Back when I was playing a lot I remember this one bass player that was in our band that ALWAYS was subbing out. Great player, but couldn't commit, especially if he got a better gig. As far as I know he's not getting the same amount of calls these days because he can't be relied upon to follow through. I think he's also had a difficult time landing gigs because his reputation has made people in the business a bit wary.

Outlier insofar as you're suggesting the way to get gigs may have nothing to do with what Scott is up against because you have a social/business network set up that you can milk for those gigs. Scott (and I, and maybe Beeboss, and lots of musicians) don't have the type of day job or the personality that may lend itself to the social aspect of making money. So I'd think taking advice from someone in a similar situation may be more prudent. This isn't to say that what you are doing is wrong by any means, but given the different circumstances I'd think that Scott has to look at how best to approach the task of getting work.

So yes, networking is important, so is a solid presentation. The hardest part I'd think is getting a network set up. For me this is quite draining, and to be honest I'd rather play for free than BS with a bunch of people I'd normally not want to talk to just to get a gig.

I'm not sure I'd reach the same conclusion as you. I don't know him from Adam, but if he's a decent player he probably wants to play with as many decent players as he can, and that means playing lousy gigs with the other decent players. Maybe he also doesn't have the inclination to seek out the corporate gigs and play the style of music that those gigs demand.