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#2018272 - 01/21/13 11:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Pat,

Many thanks for your recordings. I found it very useful to hear the de-tuned unison (-1, 0, +1).

(Frankly, I can't believe that anyone would prefer such a unison over a beatless one, as Kirk's paper would have us believe. The mind boggles!)


This is the level of difference find in any unison, that cab, eventually, stay put (if a certain shape is adopted from the start.

This is true, but it is challenging to find it when we shall create harmony in three strings and no mistakes. Otherwise, we can go to build the wrong intervals from basic of "false unisons"

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#2018317 - 01/21/13 12:06 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Max ,he basis to learn that is to tune right string to the middle one (middle one first tuned)

Listen well for a pure clear tone, no "moaning", no beats (unless false beats wink )

Then mute the right string and tune the left one with the same tone.

Whatever the tone is if you have the same on both side, you even dont need to tune with the 3 strings together.


Last edited by Kamin; 01/21/13 12:06 PM.

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#2018331 - 01/21/13 12:28 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Max ,he basis to learn that is to tune right string to the middle one (middle one first tuned)

Listen well for a pure clear tone, no "moaning", no beats (unless false beats wink

Kamin,I do tuning all three of the string as me seems right. I'm plucking or mute (not hear any of the beats, noise or waves) However, if I'm start to check on power kick hammer me there's some extra beats. I'm having doubts and I do not know if I should as tuning the next interval.

#2018335 - 01/21/13 12:32 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

Most if not all concert tuner do like that (?)

You can tune with the 3 strings sounding together of course but it is more difficult, I do that when I want to have maximum energy at the attack

The unison "shape" you obtain with first the center string is the most stable in time, in my experience.

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Last edited by Kamin; 01/21/13 04:24 PM.

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#2018423 - 01/21/13 02:36 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
I do tuning all three of the string as me seems right. I'm plucking or mute (not hear any of the beats, noise or waves) However, if I'm start to check on power kick hammer me there's some extra beats. I'm having doubts and I do not know if I should as tuning the next interval.


Max, you need to be muting strings more. You have wedges? Use them to isolate the string that you are tuning. You only want to be able to hear the note you are tuning to (if it already has a good unison) and the string you are tuning. Then when the first string is set, you can unmute the second one and tune that unison, then the third and tune that. You will be left with a proper, beatless unison.

It is impossible to tune well enough without muting the appropriate strings at the right time. If you don't start doing this then you will never improve!

Use a temperament strip at the beginning to mute everything apart from the middle string in the centre of the piano. Then you can tune the temperament octave without worrying about the unisons. You need to get this right at first. Then set the octaves and the unisons as I describe.

#2018524 - 01/21/13 06:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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I am in total agreement with Phil.

I thought this thread was about temperament? With the best will in the world, no tuning can possibly be acceptable unless one can first set a scale to work from. I would be a great deal more impressed with Max's progress if it were possible for him to demonstrate a scale (temperament) by muting off the first 12 notes so that only one string in each unison was sounding and then asking for guidance. That way he could concentrate on getting the basis correct instead of blindly ploughing through the other 200+ strings getting overwhelmed by notes that need correction.

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


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#2018533 - 01/21/13 06:46 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Johnkie

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


Agreed. There is one thing that mystifies me about Max. He was sent a complete Randy Potter course for instructional purposes.

The instructional DVD’s did not make it through the mail to Max.

Why is he not spending time translating the course pages daily or one page a day, but insists on spending great deal of time here?


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#2018545 - 01/21/13 07:07 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh


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#2018551 - 01/21/13 07:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: David Jenson]  
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Originally Posted by David Jenson
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh


Same here.


Jean Poulin

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#2018657 - 01/21/13 11:00 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Who says we're all in here lurking around??? I'm not!!!


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#2018662 - 01/21/13 11:04 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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That makes three of us who aren't here. Is anyone else not here?

I figured that Groot fella might be not here, but I didn't want to say anything to give him away.


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#2018681 - 01/21/13 11:52 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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😇👼🙈🙉🙊 That's me. A perfect angel. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil but I have FUN!


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#2018710 - 01/22/13 01:22 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)

#2018714 - 01/22/13 01:28 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: David Jenson]  
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Originally Posted by David Jenson
I'm lurking ... and it's entertaining.

Everyone carry on now. Just pretend I'm not here. laugh

This theme is not about Max. Here we can try to understand and do it's a discussion about the temperament. In the future would like to see examples of the quality of temperament of our forum regulars

#2018716 - 01/22/13 01:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted by Johnkie

This thread is going round and round in circles getting nowhere fast!


Why is he not spending time translating the course pages daily or one page a day, but insists on spending great deal of time here?

Max has a lot of free time

#2018730 - 01/22/13 02:16 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: MU51C JP]  
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Originally Posted by Johnkie

I would be a great deal more impressed with Max's progress if it were possible for him to demonstrate a scale (temperament) by muting off the first 12 notes so that only one string in each unison was sounding and then asking for guidance. That way he could concentrate on getting the basis correct instead of blindly ploughing through the other 200+ strings getting overwhelmed by notes that need correction.

Max still hopes that one day it will happen. Johnkie, you are right that Max is not very consistent in their desires. He absolutely can not put specific targets and try to solve them. But he tries. English gentleman be indulgent to him

#2018744 - 01/22/13 02:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


Nobody is making any accusations. They are giving you advice, Max. Good advice. Over and over and over.

The piano's tone is not the same when plucked or played. A good, solid, clean unison is tuned by using the piano's hammer. The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M
0:01 - 1:57 = examples of bad and good unisons
2:00 - 3:25 = tuning a temperament (he uses mainly 4ths and 5ths, and checks with 3rds and 6ths)
3:25 - 3:50 = extending the temperament to the whole middle section (still single strings!)
3:52 - 4:55 = tuning left and right string of each unison in the middle section
4:55 - 5:35 = extending octaves into bass and treble (using a mute in the treble to tune one string to the octave, then the other two).

In summary:
1) Start with the temperament, then extend it.
2) Tune one string of each unison correctly, then the others.
3) No plucking to be seen anywhere!


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#2018760 - 01/22/13 03:48 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Max is being given lots of advice, some of it conflicting but not necessarily wrong, some of it too advanced for a beginner.

If Max were a hands on student of any of us, we would be attempting to supplant some of the bad habits with better ones. That is the hardest part of any teaching, particularly when the student has some sort of hidden attachment to doing it the hard way.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2018793 - 01/22/13 05:03 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


If you still believe that you have yet a very large step to go, then eventually you will begin to progress at a normal speed.

The "tuner" is not precise enough to show you if the tone is musical tone.

On pianos in bad condition,old or with bad strings, the role of the human tuner is to give the impression that the piano is better than it is. So I understand your idea of tone shaping but you are not yet experimented enough to do that well. Your ears may be tired soon an then you cannot judge of the final tone.

It is because nobody showed you really, in front of you, giving you methods, books and reading can help but minimally, you have to watch training videos at last and try to reproduce what you see..

But you have been send much links and material so the rest is up to you.

If you where able to record a temperament that would mean you where able to judge yourself of your work. For now you are yet too much in fantasy, to me.

Basics and ear training are necessary.

Best wishes


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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2018844 - 01/22/13 09:00 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin
try to tune only 2 at once you will see it is easier (but not with plucking, with playng)

As you are used to pluck the strings you can hear easily if the 2 outer strings are exactly the same (the center one a hair lower)

I suspect you finish your unison control with plucking the strings, this gives a too bright tone generally.

Dear Kamin, it is true. When I'm read your words. You are as close was when I do temperament. I really keep plucking the strings now, because it is associated with a biggest wear and tear a pianos which I have . With reference check unisons really sound very bright and I do not find errors. The tuner also shows that I was right. I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


For now you are yet too much in fantasy, to me.

If a lot of incorrect theory of Max finally would transformed into quality the temperament of piano , then rejoice not only the Max. Will be happy all ( a invisible transatlantic web puppeteers and his customers). Thank you that understood "the idea of ​​forming the tone, but you have not experimented enough to do it well."
"If you are able to record where temperament, which means that you where able to judge yourself on your job" is a big dream of Max. But Max is not able to record video on a regular basis, there is no money to buy a camera. However, this does not mean that he is not engaged temperament. It's moving, and does it every day. Sometimes Max's customers do not hear in the sound of his inconsistencies temperament. It's little victory

#2018849 - 01/22/13 09:10 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Mark R.]  
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M

Thank Mark,what makes this Japanese man very clear for me. I do it too, just hold the hammer lever to the left to avoid flexure pins. However, until I have get a clean unison in ending tone.

#2018851 - 01/22/13 09:19 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
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Originally Posted by rxd
That is the hardest part of any teaching, particularly when the student has some sort of hidden attachment to doing it the hard way.

Max's entire life is really testing methods "in their own skin." I dare to hope that his skin is so callous that mistakes will the turn in the things for work of his brain

#2018921 - 01/22/13 11:21 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan

Max has a lot of free time


Honestly Max if you are willing to admit to having a lot of free time, then I am of the opinion the free time would be well spent translating the instructional materials for yourself.

Along with that I note tools that have been sent to you are not being used in any of the videos you present here.

Both the course and the tools were sent over to help you learn.

This would help greatly with your tuning education.



Dan Silverwood
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#2019367 - 01/23/13 12:05 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted by Maximillyan

Max has a lot of free time


Along with that I note tools that have been sent to you are not being used in any of the videos you present here.

It isn't so.Here gift hammer. I use it all the time. Recently, I use the technique (9-12)


#2019405 - 01/23/13 01:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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The hammer hold on left side is to LOWER pitch if necessary (for instance 442 to 440) There the pin push on the most important part of the hole , crushing the wood with pressure on the part supposed to brake the tuning pin (not fully but yet a little on the right side of the tuning "bed")

So to me, not excellent for the pinblock, also I understand why ;

You tune the treble too low (plucking strings make you hear more partials and the pitch appreciation is then false if compared with normal playing)

The tuning pins are not set so this will move when piano is played (possibly all strings move more or less the same so it not noticed immediiately)

You last unison is not that bad, however...

You may learn FIRST a standard technique an Understand WHY it is employed. (understand pin setting for instance)

Afterthat if something else work for you and you know what you are doing no problem, I have seen numerous fancy techniques with tuning hammer, but seem to notice that the best tuners use normalized simple techniques for decades with excellent results.

For instance you can have a plane flying with the tail on the front, but it will be difficult to drive it finely...


Ps why do you use the sustain pedal to show intervals ?

Play similar 4ths more slowly, and 5ths , next time, some of them are not bad certainly.

Last edited by Kamin; 01/23/13 01:22 AM.

Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2019414 - 01/23/13 01:32 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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I appreciated the conference on how not to use a tuning lever when you are not left handed and you are beginner.

Ah ! we all need some sort of glory !

the fun of the thing is that at no moment you show your "students" the normal and usual way to use a tuning lever !

We need courage to try to help you Max wink

I suggest a second DVD to be send ...


Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2019416 - 01/23/13 01:51 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M

Thank Mark,what makes this Japanese man very clear for me. I do it too, just hold the hammer lever to the left to avoid flexure pins. However, until I have get a clean unison in ending tone.



Max if you "do it too but hold the hammer to the left" you DONT do it too...

Do it too mean do as it is shown, you will find the reasons why later.

Pin flex more with lever at 9:00 pin flex less with lever at 12-14:00

But hammer easier to move at 9:00 (vertical piano) because the hole is free of pression.
More difficult to set the pin firmly and precisely but easier to raise the note an less wear on the hole.

But EXTREME flex of the pin when you push to set it and a little brutal then...


With lever at 13:00 you naturally lighten the pressure when turning, but beforethen you may LEARN to PERCEIVE where is the rotary plane of the tuning pin so to push the right amount on the lever without flexing the pin too much.

So FIRST one learn to "turn" the lever in perfect rotary plane of the pin then LATER one learn to use the pin springiness to have an easier motion.

Last edited by Kamin; 01/23/13 01:55 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2019542 - 01/23/13 10:30 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
KZ
Originally Posted by Kamin


You last unison is not that bad, however...

Play similar 4ths more slowly, and 5ths , next time, some of them are not bad certainly.

Ps why do you use the sustain pedal to show intervals ?

Thank Kamin, I glad that have some of Max's temperament change. I shall play more slowly in future
I don't use the sustain pedal

#2019543 - 01/23/13 10:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jun 2011
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Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
KZ
Originally Posted by Kamin


I suggest a second DVD to be send ...

Sorry,DVD don't bring for Max in Kazakhstan

#2019550 - 01/23/13 10:42 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
KZ
Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Max,

I am no professional, but thanks to some good books and the technicians on this forum, I have made some progress.

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
I see no reason to accusation that plucking wrong but a mute is norm. To basic tone it is irrelevant how it arises (from impact or pinching)


The technicians on this forum have been telling you this for more than a year (two years?)

ALL good tuning videos show normal playing, not plucking. Again, here's one of my favorites (I've posted it before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M

Thank Mark,what makes this Japanese man very clear for me. I do it too, just hold the hammer lever to the left to avoid flexure pins. However, until I have get a clean unison in ending tone.


But hammer easier to move at 9:00 (vertical piano) because the hole is free of pression.
More difficult to set the pin firmly and precisely but easier to raise the note an less wear on the hole.

But EXTREME flex of the pin when you push to set it and a little brutal then...

Thank you for understanding the method 9-12. However I think that for grand piano this works also.
Piano pin tuning technique when we set the tuning hammer handle to the left and screw clockwise from 9 to 12. This method alows us to leave the wood bush bottom and pin hole upper part safe. While the classical method disintegrates them.

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