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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: AZNpiano] #2017329
01/19/13 02:48 PM
01/19/13 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
As has been said, if a cadence ends on V, it is imperfect.

Well, "perfect" vs. "imperfect" cadence means a totally different thing here in the states. You want to look that up, too?

Could you clarify, AZN? What does it mean in the US?

In RCM we learn that a "perfect" cadence is the type that ends a phrase, i.e. it ends on I. V-I, V7-I. Then there are subgroups such as the "authentic" where the melody note is 1.

"imperfect" ends on V, such as I-V and IV-V - it gives a pause or idea that there is a second half (other phrase) and similar.

"plagal" is the "amen chord"

"deceptive cadence" fools you ... you think you're going to I, but instead it goes to vi ... V-vi.

These are basic concepts taught over here. How do they compare to the US? I have never heard of a "half cadence" before this week.

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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017344
01/19/13 03:13 PM
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The Wikipedia page I linked to earlier gives the terminology that I believe AZNPiano is referring to, where perfect/imperfect refer to voicings of a V-I cadence, and V-I cadences vs. I-V cadences are called authentic vs. half cadences.

This is helping me, because I had never quite realized that the different terminology might be English (Commonwealth) vs. American. I have a variety of harmony books; now I'm curious as to which terms they use, and if it correlates with where they were published.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017345
01/19/13 03:15 PM
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Am I imagining this, or are V-I cadences sometimes called closed cadences, and I-V cadences are sometimes called open cadences?

And if I-V cadences are called half-cadences in one system, why aren't V-I cadences called full cadences in that system?

[ETA: yikes! I just spotted what keystring said about authentic cadences in the system she learned. So in both systems a V-I cadence with the melody ending on the tonic is a perfect authentic cadence, but in one system perfect means V-I and authentic means melody ends on tonic. And in the other system it's exactly the reverse: perfect means the melody ends on tonic and authentic means V-I. Horrible, horrible, horrible. No wonder I've always been confused when I tried to learn the terminology.]

Last edited by PianoStudent88; 01/19/13 03:20 PM.

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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017425
01/19/13 05:38 PM
01/19/13 05:38 PM
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LOL

This thread has truly evolved. Way OT.

I did not know what a perfect authentic cadence is, either, until some kid put that answer on his CM theory test, and the entire grading room was clueless, so we had to consult the expert. It turns out that perfect/imperfect (at least in the American system) is used to describe the voicing of the final chord, to have the tonic on the top and bottom. So the kid's answer was actually correct. The concept of perfect/imperfect is not part of the CM curriculum.

Now who's confused???


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017435
01/19/13 05:53 PM
01/19/13 05:53 PM
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Ah, I found the half cadence in my (literally) dusty Sarnecki.

Perfect - V-I
denotes resolution. (So if in the start of your music you have a bunch of V-I-V-I-V-I to establish the tonic, that's note a cadence).
- If the I chord has the melody end on the tonic, then it is "closed" and it's the strongest kind of cadence. Well obviously, if a song ends on the tonic that's pretty final.
- If the melody ends on the 3 or 5 of the I chord, then it is "semi-closed". In other words, you expect the music to continue.

Perfect is also called "authentic" in this system.

Imperfect of Half Cadence (here's where they use this) I-V
- It's designated as "open" because you expect the music to continue even if a section might be finished.

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
So the kid's answer was actually correct.

So kid got his mark for the answer, I take it?

I am guessing that Sarnecki is being "bilingual" or "bi-geographic" by using Perfect as well as Authentic, and then Imperfect as well as Half. Are Authentic and Half used in the US?

(This might be a question for Kreisler).

Last edited by keystring; 01/19/13 05:54 PM.
Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017461
01/19/13 06:41 PM
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I learned about perfect and imperfect authentic cadences back in my college days. Not that I really have much use for that information, 30 years later . . .


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017678
01/20/13 06:11 AM
01/20/13 06:11 AM
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We have not yet heard back from ezpiano, to find out exactly where the problem lies, or how these things are being presented.

Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2017711
01/20/13 08:22 AM
01/20/13 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
Rocket addressed it above.

I see what you are referring to - this:
Quote
If a student is unsure about what is a half-step, or that a 1/8 note is half a beat (but not in 6/8 or 12/8 time!),


But this involves compound vs. simple time. Also, the same kind of terminology is being used, that equates notes with beats. When teaching rudiments I make very sure that the student makes a difference between relationship between note values, and beats. They tend to fuse, and they shouldn't.


When you are first introducing note values to a student, you are going to tell them that a quarter note gets one beat, half note gets, two, etc. Same with 1/8 notes. Issues of compound meter opens up a whole new can of worms that the student may not be ready to process yet, and so I see no problem avoiding the topic altogether by speaking only in the time signatures that the student is currently working with when learning a new note.

With that said, why are they learning about cadences at this point? I can see learning how to play I IV V I progressions, but I wouldn't introduce the word "cadence" at all for a while.

Same goes for half steps, although these can be introduced as long as they are taught alongside whole steps. Then there is little room for confusion with half notes. It's half step vs. whole step. And neither should be taught prior to a good understanding of intervals, IMO.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018130
01/21/13 01:52 AM
01/21/13 01:52 AM
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I am sorry for late reply.
Here is the order of presentation (the length of lesson is approximately and differ from students to students)
Half note is two beat by 2nd month of lesson.
Eighth note is half a beat by 5th month of lesson.
Then some student would confuse that half note is only half beat, or call eighth note a half note.
Half step by about 8th month of lesson.
When asked what is a half step, some students will tell me half step is 2 beats. In that case, I would then play a half step then a whole step on piano then ask him which one is a half step, the student would get it right.
Mostly those that confused will get the right answer if I provide them some choices in the answer, but they won't get it right without choices.
Half cadences by 2 years of lesson.
When asked what is half cadences, again, some students will tell me 2 beats. In this case, then I have to provide them the list of V-I, or I-V, or IV-I, then they will get the right answer for half cadence.
So, again, those confused will get right answer only if I provide the choices. They can't get it right if I only ask: "What is half cadence?"
I hope I make sense here.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: keystring] #2018152
01/21/13 03:00 AM
01/21/13 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I am guessing that Sarnecki is being "bilingual" or "bi-geographic" by using Perfect as well as Authentic, and then Imperfect as well as Half. Are Authentic and Half used in the US?


No it's not repeating the same thing.

In the U.S. the term Authentic is describing the harmonic movement of V-I. Perfect is describing how the chord is voiced, specifically that the tonic is in the upper or soprano voice in the I chord. So a Perfect Authentic Cadence means the harmonic progression is V - I, and the ending I chord has scale degree one in the soprano voice. (It seems you have the terminology of calling this a "closed cadence"?) An Imperfect Authentic Cadence would still have the harmonic movement of V - I, but would have either scale degree 3 or 5 in the soprano voice.

So the student on his CM test knew exactly what he was talking about.

The Aldwell/Schachter Harmony and Voice Leading also identifies "semicadence" as another name for "half cadence", but I've heard "half cadence" used more often by U.S. educated musicians.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018153
01/21/13 03:08 AM
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It sound to me like this isn't a problem with the fact that the terminology uses the same words, but that the students either aren't retaining the information or didn't comprehend it in the first place.

So my guess is you're barking up the wrong tree with latching onto the fact that the word "half" is used for different things. I think the problem may be more that they are confusing intervals (steps) with cadences and note types.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018236
01/21/13 09:14 AM
01/21/13 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
I am sorry for late reply.
Here is the order of presentation (the length of lesson is approximately and differ from students to students)
Half note is two beat by 2nd month of lesson.
Eighth note is half a beat by 5th month of lesson.
Then some student would confuse that half note is only half beat, or call eighth note a half note.
Half step by about 8th month of lesson.
When asked what is a half step, some students will tell me half step is 2 beats. In that case, I would then play a half step then a whole step on piano then ask him which one is a half step, the student would get it right.
Mostly those that confused will get the right answer if I provide them some choices in the answer, but they won't get it right without choices.
Half cadences by 2 years of lesson.
When asked what is half cadences, again, some students will tell me 2 beats. In this case, then I have to provide them the list of V-I, or I-V, or IV-I, then they will get the right answer for half cadence.
So, again, those confused will get right answer only if I provide the choices. They can't get it right if I only ask: "What is half cadence?"
I hope I make sense here.


I am less concerned that a student can tell me verbally what a minim is, and more concerned that they hold it for the correct amount of time. Again, as long that they can find F# for me, it doesn't matter too much that they forget what a semitone is.

But what I am discovering is that I really need to test and assess them on concepts I expect them to know. It's not enough that I taught it, and that they knew it, they need to keep on knowing it. So one thing you could do, is test they know what they should know, and if they don't consistently give the right answer, don't teach the new concept yet.


Re: My students is so confused... [Re: ten left thumbs] #2018244
01/21/13 09:27 AM
01/21/13 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ten left thumbs

I am less concerned that a student can tell me verbally what a minim is, and more concerned that they hold it for the correct amount of time. Again, as long that they can find F# for me, it doesn't matter too much that they forget what a semitone is.

TLT, am I guessing right that you would start mentioning these terms on and off as they work on music with you over the months and years, so that if they move up a half step, you might use the word "half step" or whatever and the word gels after a while? I understand that teaching theory actually begins at a concrete, practical level. The student has played lots of V7-I chords with a grand finish long before ever working theoretically with "cadences" for example.

Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018278
01/21/13 10:22 AM
01/21/13 10:22 AM
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Yes, the drip drip approach. I would not use 'half step' so I don't get that particular confusion. But I'm distinguishing between understanding the concept and knowing the name for it.

I don't have anyone advanced enough for cadences.

Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018285
01/21/13 10:31 AM
01/21/13 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
I am sorry for late reply.
Here is the order of presentation (the length of lesson is approximately and differ from students to students)
Half note is two beat by 2nd month of lesson.
Eighth note is half a beat by 5th month of lesson.
Then some student would confuse that half note is only half beat, or call eighth note a half note.
Half step by about 8th month of lesson.
When asked what is a half step, some students will tell me half step is 2 beats. In that case, I would then play a half step then a whole step on piano then ask him which one is a half step, the student would get it right.
Mostly those that confused will get the right answer if I provide them some choices in the answer, but they won't get it right without choices.
Half cadences by 2 years of lesson.
When asked what is half cadences, again, some students will tell me 2 beats. In this case, then I have to provide them the list of V-I, or I-V, or IV-I, then they will get the right answer for half cadence.
So, again, those confused will get right answer only if I provide the choices. They can't get it right if I only ask: "What is half cadence?"
I hope I make sense here.


They may not be listening properly. If a student answers "two beats" to the question "what is a half step" then I would say "No, that is a half NOTE. What is a half STEP?" Perhaps even take out some flash cards or a board to draw on and show them a half note and say this gets two beats. Then draw a series of half steps on the staff using all different kinds of note values they are familiar with and show them that a half step can involve any kind of note value.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: Morodiene] #2018343
01/21/13 11:39 AM
01/21/13 11:39 AM
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Half step ;-) In guitar or MIDI it's THE step.

It's an artefact the diatonic scale, and so of the almost universal keyboard, that 5 of the 7 second intervals in an octave are really a whole step (or 2 MIDI steps).

Piano/keyboard forms a different kind of challenge. Of adapting hand positions to scales in the 12 different keys.

In guitar one has to form any diatonic scale 'by hand' (1 or 2 frets at a time) but then transposition is just mechanical shifting. But that's still not what one reads in traditional notation... if something's confusing to many, THAT's confusing.

Who had that grand idea to make a diatonic-independent piano keyboard, forming scales 'by hand' but then transposing mechanically ?
(Or maybe with 6 black keys per octave ? BUT that would lose the nice recognizable pattern of 2, 3, 2, 3 helping orientation)

Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018353
01/21/13 11:56 AM
01/21/13 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
Half cadences by 2 years of lesson.
When asked what is half cadences, again, some students will tell me 2 beats. In this case, then I have to provide them the list of V-I, or I-V, or IV-I, then they will get the right answer for half cadence.

Here's your problem: You are introducing half cadences way too soon! How old are these kids? Seven?

Also, knowing V-I, I-V, or IV-I does NOT equate the understanding of these cadences. The students are just associating a bunch of Roman numerals with the names of the cadences.

Why don't you ask these confused students to draw a half cadence in F major?


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018396
01/21/13 01:05 PM
01/21/13 01:05 PM
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Quote
They may not be listening properly.


Yes, maybe is the listening problem. Once they hear the word "half" first thing they think is 2 beats and without paying attention to if it is a cadence, or step, or note.

As I said, only a few of my students are constantly confused, not all of them.


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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018397
01/21/13 01:08 PM
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Quote
Why don't you ask these confused students to draw a half cadence in F major?


Yes, given a work book of Peggy Odell, Level 2 at the cadence section, these confused students are able to draw a half cadence.

As I said with visualize aid they are capable of giving correct answer, and with given choices of the answer to choose from, they usually get it right.



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Re: My students is so confused... [Re: bzpiano] #2018399
01/21/13 01:09 PM
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Quote
Also, knowing V-I, I-V, or IV-I does NOT equate the understanding of these cadences. The students are just associating a bunch of Roman numerals with the names of the cadences.


Agree with you, that is why they also play these cadence at the side in technique part. During lesson in regular repertoire or method book, I pointed out what is half cadence if I can find one.


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