Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
jazzwee .. just a few more CA words ... those first 3 chords bars in con alma ... the progression is also in the last part of how deep is the ocean. actually is a really common progression. it's moves from a I major 7 chord to a vi minor 7 chord and passes through a dominant to the vi chord on the way ... AND the third is more or less held as a common tone through all 3 chords. (that kind of dominant is often referred to as a "secondary" dominant." whether or not you use that terminology isn't important ... sometimes it's labeled as V/iv. But, again, that's not the important part.
so those first three chords show us that ANYTIME you're moving from I to vi you can do it exactly as you see in con alma. in rhythm changes, in blues, in other standards whatever.
hope this helps!
I see that now! Seeing it in E obstructs the thought process.
It's simpler than I thought. Now the Ab7/Eb -- do I treat that as an Ab7 inversion, i.e. a III7? Or is that truly an Eb-6?
If I just look at it as a III7 then it's just going | I III7 | vi V7 |
I'm thinking from a scale point of view that this is:
| Emaj7 Ab7/Eb | C#-7 B7 |...translates to ...
A | E Lydian Db | E | Eb | Eb Lydian Db | | Db Lydian Bb | Db | C | C Lydian |
Is that right?
EDIT - I found different changes in Colorado Book with Tritone subs added...
Though I seem to have conquered the rushing, I've now discovered that on some tunes, I get into a habit of sticking to stepwise movement and less arpeggiations. I need to practice to counter this. I think I got so used to hearing the melodies in a linear motion. Here's an example. Also my "sentence" construction needs improvement.
Audience loved it though (lots of attentive nodding heads), I'm sure because the groove was there.
JW, It's like you're a different player on this track. Your lines are flowing really good. Make sure to rest once in a while. Solar is such a great blowing tune.
Though I seem to have conquered the rushing, I've now discovered that on some tunes, . . .Solarhttps://www.box.com/s/sk2o0qbcnl7xvklccaf9 Audience loved it though (lots of attentive nodding heads), I'm sure because the groove was there.
+1 on the great improvement! You sound so much "on it"! If you would cut back on your LH 50% it would sound even better . . IMO.
I see that now! Seeing it in E obstructs the thought process.
MOST XCELLENT! So, transposing out of E shows you how to play in E!
It's simpler than I thought. Now the Ab7/Eb -- do I treat that as an Ab7 inversion, i.e. a III7? Or is that truly an Eb-6?
COULD BE ANY OF THEM ... the D# in the bass going to C# - that's the _essential_ note. so the chords you mention .. just a case of what sounds good to u!
OR if the bass plays G#7 rather than G#7/D#, rhen you have other options ...
If I just look at it as a III7 then it's just going | I III7 | vi V7 |
EXACTLY!
I'm thinking from a scale point of view that this is:
| Emaj7 Ab7/Eb | C#-7 B7 |...translates to ...
A | E Lydian Db | E | Eb | Eb Lydian Db | | Db Lydian Bb | Db | C | C Lydian |
Is that right?
If you like it! You might, however, find it intesting to identify common tones that go across the chords. Make lines by emphasizing your set of common tones while also surrounding them with other notes that aren't common tones.
EDIT - I found different changes in Colorado Book with Tritone subs added... [/quote]
there are always a million ways ... and the more u work through them, the more you'll have even more choices ready to go
Con Alma is a wonderful tune, I love those choral harmonies. I wonder if the tune influenced Charlie Haden in writing Silence (another marvellous tune):
Con Alma is a wonderful tune, I love those choral harmonies. I wonder if the tune influenced Charlie Haden in writing Silence (another marvellous tune):
Yes I can see how one could sound as an influence for the other.
Con Alma though is specifically a contrast of Tension and Release. The A section has so much tension that by the time you get to the B, you're saying YES -- GIVE ME THAT E MAJOR!
This Charlie Haden tune is more modal in comparison (no B section).
Silence is really a nice tune. I've never heard it before. Nice find.
I see that now! Seeing it in E obstructs the thought process.
MOST XCELLENT! So, transposing out of E shows you how to play in E!
It's simpler than I thought. Now the Ab7/Eb -- do I treat that as an Ab7 inversion, i.e. a III7? Or is that truly an Eb-6?
COULD BE ANY OF THEM ... the D# in the bass going to C# - that's the _essential_ note. so the chords you mention .. just a case of what sounds good to u!
OR if the bass plays G#7 rather than G#7/D#, rhen you have other options ...
If I just look at it as a III7 then it's just going | I III7 | vi V7 |
EXACTLY!
I'm thinking from a scale point of view that this is:
| Emaj7 Ab7/Eb | C#-7 B7 |...translates to ...
A | E Lydian Db | E | Eb | Eb Lydian Db | | Db Lydian Bb | Db | C | C Lydian |
Is that right?
If you like it! You might, however, find it intesting to identify common tones that go across the chords. Make lines by emphasizing your set of common tones while also surrounding them with other notes that aren't common tones.
EDIT - I found different changes in Colorado Book with Tritone subs added... there are always a million ways ... and the more u work through them, the more you'll have even more choices ready to go
I know I have to sit there and do those common tones but I was just analyzing away from the piano. I'm still trying to memorize the changes right now. It goes really fast. Like Giant Steps.
Fortunately, the head couldn't be simpler! That's the least of my problems. LOL.
Thank you so much for your helpful advice! We have another jazz teacher in the house!
This Charlie Haden tune is more modal in comparison (no B section). Silence is really a nice tune. I've never heard it before. Nice find.
Yes, there's a B section, but not a usual one. It is a really beautiful tune, I love how the A and B section contrast each other harmony wise. So for those of you interested and as it's not in any books I've seen, here's the chart: https://www.box.com/s/vmgjhei5hv87l24gg1vp Enjoy!
Though I seem to have conquered the rushing, I've now discovered that on some tunes, I get into a habit of sticking to stepwise movement and less arpeggiations. I need to practice to counter this. I think I got so used to hearing the melodies in a linear motion. Here's an example. Also my "sentence" construction needs improvement.
Audience loved it though (lots of attentive nodding heads), I'm sure because the groove was there.
JW, It's like you're a different player on this track. Your lines are flowing really good. Make sure to rest once in a while. Solar is such a great blowing tune.
Also, can I have your audience?
Thanks Knots and Chris!
I didn't post it expecting good comments. I just hear the problems so that was really appreciated.
BTW Knotty, I had a SINGLE session with Dave Frank and my playing changed OVERNIGHT. Fun session too.
Anyway as I was saying, I wasn't following all of Dave's advice and I could hear it so I know there's some more tweaking. But the main hump has been crossed I think. (Thanks Dave!).
And the tough part is (ignoring the noisy people) they are actually watching our every move. LOL.
We did one trial gig here 6 months ago and we've been back regularly ever since. This is a great example of developing your own audience. And now we're sounding even much better than what they originally heard.
This is the smallest but the most fun place we play at. If you look at the Facebook pics, we're packed like sardines! The audience is as well.
This Charlie Haden tune is more modal in comparison (no B section). Silence is really a nice tune. I've never heard it before. Nice find.
Yes, there's a B section, but not a usual one. It is a really beautiful tune, I love how the A and B section contrast each other harmony wise. So for those of you interested and as it's not in any books I've seen, here's the chart: https://www.box.com/s/vmgjhei5hv87l24gg1vp Enjoy!
Did you transcribe this? Wow.
Can you hear the chords then in the Pasqua version of Con Alma?
We talked about this a few years ago, but do you recall that I thought it was the treatment of the Gb, Eb, Bb and some other chords that made it a difficult tune? The major resting points of Fmaj Dm, and Am are all ok, but then how to treat the semitones up? For this reason I've really enjoyed working on the tune. Once the puzzle has been solved, it comes together nicely except when I forget some bit of the melody.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
I don't recall specifics of our earlier discussions on Beatrice but I think this tune requires close examination of common tones among the chords. As I discovered it benefits from that kind of analysis more than a chord by chord approach.
For one thing some of the 'theory' behind some chords are not entirely clear. Is the Am7 a ii chord or a iii chord? Is the Cm7 a ii chord or a vi chord? When I think common tones then it changed the way I looked at it.
I played it today and realized I'd probably change the way I attack this next time.
I avoid playing m7 chord voicings, except on the Gm7 (and of course the Em7(b5)-A7alt turnaround). I play a min(add9) [leaving out the 7). A tune like Beatrice gains from being sparse.
Sam Rivers Robert Glasper Joe Henderson Chet Baker Lewis Nash Kevin Hays Wayne Escoffrey Dylan Howe Jay Rodriguez Doug Raney Scott Wendholt Tatum Greenblatt Pee Wee Ellis
there's a lot to be gained by playing (only) the melody and (only) the bass line of the opening measures .. so, other words as a simple 2-part phrase.
if you play it over and over again (or perhaps just a few times), you may find a very nice and perhaps not so obvious way to to solo on it. harmonizations can also be found this way ... actually for any tune.
... the key is the two part structure ... (top and bottom lines only) and how that effects what we hear of the tune ...
there's a lot to be gained by playing (only) the melody and (only) the bass line of the opening measures .. so, other words as a simple 2-part phrase.
if you play it over and over again (or perhaps just a few times), you may find a very nice and perhaps not so obvious way to to solo on it. harmonizations can also be found this way ... actually for any tune.
... the key is the two part structure ... (top and bottom lines only) and how that effects what we hear of the tune ...
hope this helps!
I actually successfully played through Con Alma at tempo yesterday. There's some nice tension built up in the first 2 bars of each phrase of the melody. And I realize you don't have to do much there but allow the tension to occur.
Maybe because I heard the Pasqua version first that I like the effect of intervallic playing on those two bars. Sparse but the highest level of tension. Then each following two bars of the A reduce the tension a little bit until the next set of 4.
So my imagery of Con Alma at the moment is:
A || High Tension | High Tension | Medium Tension | Medium Tension || | High Tension | High Tension | Medium Tension | Medium Tension ||
B Release
A ...
Very unusual tune in that the tension is high for most of it.
I'm going to linger on the melody note like you say and see what happens. I see that that could be home base for intervallic lines.
I avoid playing m7 chord voicings, except on the Gm7 (and of course the Em7(b5)-A7alt turnaround). I play a min(add9) [leaving out the 7). A tune like Beatrice gains from being sparse.
Now the question is why you think this?
And do you consider the Am a ii chord or iii chord (of Bb)? Do you consider the C- as ii chord or vi chord?
The reason for my question is that depending on one's interpretation, one could linger longer on common tones and thus simplify the melodic flow,
Con Alma: I played it Dave Franks way with the last A in Eb. It really works well and it's a good exercise to learn the A section in two keys. Improvising, however, is difficult, and doing the last A in another key just adds to the challenge. I'm not ready to improvise on this one in public yet.
Beatrice: jazzwee; I think the reference to C- is a typo? Also, on learnjazzstandards.com, a cite I like alot, they say that the D- in bar 12 is sometimes played as a D major. I do that sometimes as it's a cool sound. One example of this, according to the site, is the Stan Getz version of Ballads and Bossas, one of my favorite CDs (Kenny Barron on keyboard).
Con Alma: I played it Dave Frank's way with the last A in Eb. It really works well and it's a good exercise to learn the A section in two keys. Improvising, however, is difficult, and doing the last A in another key just adds to the challenge. I'm not ready to improvise on this one in public yet.
Beatrice: jazzwee; I think the reference to C- is a typo? Also, on learnjazzstandards.com, a cite I like a lot, they say that the D- in bar 12 is sometimes played as a D major. I do that sometimes as it's a cool sound. One example of this, according to the site, is the Stan Getz version of Ballads and Bossas, one of my favorite CDs (Kenny Barron on keyboard).
... and the more u work through them, the more you'll have even more choices ready to go