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Exercise: Happy Birthday 4
(F major—since there is an Bb--Bs are lowered a half-step/tone)
1. FAC –Fmajor (tonic) I
2. CEG-Cmajor (dominant) V
3. CEG-Cmajor (dominant) V
4. FAC –Fmajor (tonic) I
5. FAC –Fmajor (tonic) I
6. BbDF-Bbmajor (subdominant) IV
7. C FA-Fmajor (2inversion? Tonic) I and CEG-Cmajor (dominant) V
8. FACF-Fmajor (tonic) I


Now do the same thing for F major: verify the scale and work out the root position triads. Remember to use Bb, not B natural. What are the names of these triads? Which are major? Which are minor? Which are diminished? (Do you remember how to tell which are which?). Play and listen to the scale and the triads.
Root position triads for F major (remember Bb):
1. FAC-Fmajor (tonic)I
2. GBbD-Gminor
3. ACE-Aminor
4. BbDF (subdominant) IV
5. CEG- Cmajor (dominant) V
6. DFA-Dminor
7. EGBb-3 semitones for each third that makes up this triad. So this seems to be a diminished chord? Edim

Happy Birthdays 3 and 4

Good work, Valencia. All your chords are correct.

Yes, this chord is B minor. Writing out BCDEF#GA won't particularly tell it to you, since that sequence isn't a major scale, as you saw by looking at the Whole step and Half step pattern. It also isn't a minor scale. In our present context, it's just "G major scale starting on B." Checking the half steps from note to note in BDF# will tell you the chord type, as you found.

The BDEF#GAB.... is for scales, not chords. Don't mix them up. The intervals that every major scale shares goes from tonic to tonic. But you're not concerned with scales here, you're looking at chords. That's the source of confusion at that point.

We have barely touched on chords themselves, which may have caused the confusion in part of the last exercise. I suggest that for now we first look only at two chords in root position - MAJOR and MINOR CHORDS.

CEG is a major chord, while CEbG is a minor chord.

The distance between notes is called an interval. One way of measuring that distance is by counting how many piano keys we go from one note to the other. One piano key to another piano key is a "half step", and two piano keys make a "whole step".

So from C to E we have 4 half steps. From C to G we have 7 half steps. That makes up our major chord.

From C to Eb we have 3 half steps. From C to G we still have 7 half steps. That makes up our minor chord.

Please explore both the intervals and the chords. Play CEb, and play CE, and listen. Then also play CEG (C major) and CEbG (C minor) and listen. Also play CG, the interval between the outer notes which both have in common.

The most basic chord we usually learn first is the major and minor chord. Both have a 7 steps for the outer notes. The steps from the bottom to middle note are different. You could think of it as a sandwich that has a different filling, or a light switch where the middle note toggles up and down to give us major or minor. Play with this to be familiar with them.

very simple exploration of majors and minors at piano

My teacher has an exercise for beginner students to help them get their ears and hands familiar with major and minor chords. It goes like this:

White key major chords (only the white piano keys are used):
CEG
FAC
GBD

When you're used to that, lower the middle note to get the minors:
CEbG, FAbC, GBbD - toggle back and forth, and don't forget to listen.

All black:
F#A#C# (same thing is GbBbDb)

Oreo cookie chords (black on the outside, white in the middle)

EbGBb
AbCEb
DbFAb

lower the middle note for these as well to get the minor, and toggle

Reverse Oreos (white on the outside, black in the middle)
DF#A
EG#B
AC#E

ditto for minors

The two "odd" ones
BD#F# (white black black)
BbDF (black white wite)

and ditto

This is an exercise that you do over weeks, adding chords as you get comfortable. It coordinates theory first as something you hear and relates to the piano, and then as the names and categories of major and minor. These things should become part of you, and going too fast with too much information is overwhelming. At least that's how it was for me.

A brief and incomplete note about intervals. In describing the interval from C to E, I wrote "4 half steps" instead of "major third". That is because we have what intervals are, and how they are named. In beginning theory this is simple, but later on it becomes important.

Let us look at our CE, which has an interval of 4 half steps. We call CE a "third" (as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd - not the fraction). E is the 3rd note over from the starting position of C. CEb is also a "third", because we are still counting letter names, and Eb is the 3rd letter name over from C. CE, with those notes on the staff, and those letter names, is called a "major 3rd". CEb, ditto, is called a "minor 3rd". The 4 half steps vs. 3 half steps is what gives them the quality of major or minor.

The outside of our sandwich, CG is a 5th because G is the 5th note over from C. It is called a "perfect 5th" or P5. Again, it's how many half steps which determine the kind of 5th. If it were CG#, CGb, C#G, then it would still be a 5th, but not a perfect 5th.

You will read "major 3rd" and "minor 3rd" so it's important to at least mention these names.

I love that chord exploration of white/oreo/reverse oreo/others and toggling major/minor, keystring. I can tend to get too much into a world of symbols, and not enough exploring at the keyboard.

Also, intervals had been started to be mentioned, and I couldn't think of a more elegant way to say it than you have.

Lili Marlene

OK, here is an idea I have for a couple of chords in this arrangement:

M13
C
LH - C one octave below middle C
RH - E,G,C in the octave above middle C

C7
LH - C, E one octave below middle C
RH - Bb, G (melody) straddling middle C

M14
C#dim
LH - C# one octave below middle C
RH - G, E (melody) straddling middle C

Dm7
LH - D one octave below middle C
RH - A, C, G (melody) straddling middle C

G7
LH - G 1.5 octave below middle C
RH - B, F (melody) straddling middle C

M15
C
LH - C two octaves below middle C
RH - E,G,C (melody is middle C)

I Like the sound of these open chords (IE. spread out.) Just one (my) interpretation for this section.

Re: Lili Marlene Version 2


I put this fix in, and added the bass staff as PS88 requested. If the uploader worked, it'll be here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_LS_Analysis2.pdf

Something still doesn't feel quite right about the last three bars, but I can't put my finger on it.


Edit: I checked, the upload is there, despite another error message.

Yes, the uploader always gives an error page for some reason, but if you check your email it sends a working link showing it has succeeded.

Lili Marlene Version 2 - Analysis



The following link is *NOT* me playing -- it's the digital output from the MuseScore program saved as MP3:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_LS_Analysis2.mp3

PianoStudent88, I understand the concept of counting and can count basic pieces but when the rhythms get complicated and uneven I tend to internalize the timing do to the difficult counting while playing. It tends to make the music hackish.

I just thought it should be added to the template, especially for beginners and intermediate players like myself who still struggle with counting. And to mention metronome setting etc...

A great bonus who be for you or Keystring to do you tube demos of some of the projects.

Mark..., thanks for the explanation about counting. Do you have any examples of pieces with this issue?

By demos, do you mean something where you can see the hands too? Not just audio?

After playing chords in the families in the order keystring presented, (starting from the all-white key chords, and proceeding to the odd ones), I like to explore them strung together so that the last note of one chord is the first note of the next. (This may be a personal quirk of mine: I like putting things in order.)

Chocolate layer cake (all black: just one of these)
GbBbDb

Oreo cookie chords (black on the outside, white in the middle)
DbFAb
AbCEb
EbGBb

An "odd" one
BbDF (black white white)

White key major chords (only the white piano keys are used):
FAC
CEG
GBD

Reverse Oreos (white on the outside, black in the middle)
DF#A
AC#E
EG#B

An "odd" one
BD#F# (white black black)

The last note of the last one, F#, is just a different name for the first note of the first one, Gb. So you can keep going in a circle with these.

Or do this in reverse, moving from each chord to the chord before it in the list, which is probably more useful for the order these are likely to show up in pieces. (Cue music for "Circle of Fifths"!)

Of course remember to play the minor chord versions as well, toggling the middle note down a half-step.

I love that it's possible to string the chords together like this without breaking up the white/oreo/reverse-oreo families.

Lili Marlene Version 2b - Correction

I fixed a typo in Measure 13: C7 written as a chord symbol was correct, but in the grand staff version, the flat for the B was missing, making it sound as CMaj7:

The following link is *NOT* me playing -- it's the digital output from the MuseScore program saved as MP3:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2b.mp3

And here's the corrected PDF:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2b.pdf


Edit: Changed the files from version 2a to version 2b. That change corrects the beginning of bar 13 from two dotted quarters to a half and a quarter. That plus the missing flat seems to be what was still bugging me..... ;-)

Just to correct an impression, there is no real order to the chords, except as groups. You could start with Oreo cookies, all blacks, all whites, 'oddies" (the B's), anywhere - have fun and play with them.

Depending on how you have learned to practice and approach new pieces, I suspect that there are a number of things that can help you beyond having counts written in.

The first is a concept which is huge if you don't have it yet. That is, while performed pieces are a seamless whole, they are not approached that way. Professionals already have the skills, so they'll have less steps, but they still use this process for new, harder music. 1. You take a piece apart, work on smaller sections, and put it back together. 2. You work on different aspects of the music, and then incorporate them into a whole. Or you do one aspect or layer, then another, then another. Timing is one aspect. Timing itself can be broken down further. It can be done by you, especially once you understand your theory more. That is a powerful thing.

Ok - so for timing in more complicated music. I think Richard suggested somewhere to count timing away from the actual music. You can take a troublesome section and tap, say "da da dada da", say "1 2 3and 4" whatever works for you.

Note values are relative to each other, and you can use any kind of counting to work it out mathematically (proportionally). If your time signature is 4/4 and you have a bunch of 16th notes, conventionally it's "1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a". But there is no reason why you can't take a small section and do something else if you know relative proportions.

I learned another trick in a recent piece. I was told to first play the LH with the RH leaving out the "in between notes" until I could get the two hands physically coordinate. Then gradually I brought in the missing notes. This part is pure coordination.

When I started out as a student the first time round I was struggling with various things, trying to "get the feel" of them. I realized one day that I had only a very fuzzy understanding of some basic concepts. Sixteenth notes? Well there were whole notes, half notes, quarter notes, fast notes, and really really fast notes. So I faked it. Take any other concept, and it was the same "strategy".

I seem to remember that you will be finding another teacher. You might want to tell the new teacher that you want to learn how to approach pieces, and get the underlying theory to go with it. Often the goals of lessons veer toward the product - pieces, exams, recitals - rather than the process, because that is what most students and their parents (if young) are seen to be interested in. If you do show such interest, you might find yourself an enthusiastic teacher.

If we had some examples of pieces that are a counting challenge, we could do some specific problem-solving.

Lili Marlene Version 2c

PS88 sent me a version with different durations for some of the notes, and the two embellishments removed. I conformed the version with all the chords in it to those durations, and called the result Version 2c. Here are the links:

The following link is *NOT* me playing -- it's the digital output from the MuseScore program saved as MP3:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2c.mp3

And here's the corresponding PDF:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_GS_Analysis2c.pdf

Edit -- I forgot to change the b to c on the title line of the PDF.

I just did a lesson/interview with a new teacher a couple of weeks ago and will start with him in March. He went over the 1 e and a 2 e and a in regard to 16th notes.

I understand the math of time signature and note values. My problem in the physical counting as I'm playing when notes go faster than 8ths and/or the piece is uneven.

I mentioned the counting as part of the template since it's probably a major issue with beginners and even intermediate players. I didn't want to side track the thread about my issues...

PianoStudent88 most the stuff I'm working on it copyrighted stuff, so I'm not sure how to bring it up.

My you tube channel you tube channel has my hackish attempts and you can see the timing issues as well as red dot recording issues too. lol. Where I have decent takes it's mostly from internalizing the sound and not so much as counting.

But please don't let my issues deflect from the thread, it was just a suggestion to aid others in the analysis department in future pieces we discuss,

It doesn't deflect from the thread, because if you come down to it, this is what the thread is about - theory. Timing is theory.