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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016091
01/17/13 11:58 AM
01/17/13 11:58 AM
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The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2016109
01/17/13 12:28 PM
01/17/13 12:28 PM
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Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by rxd


To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.


Indeed. Much more so than Kazakhstan in fact.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2016111
01/17/13 12:30 PM
01/17/13 12:30 PM
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Maximillyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rxd
The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


This school of music hall of Uralsk. Girls graduates of this school. Now they continue their education at various conservatories in Russia and Kazakhstan. While on vacation, they visited a hometown.
Beautiful things around us is an illusion given to us in sensation. We must create a celebrate within ourselves despite "gloomy atmosphere around us." In Uralsk music concerts is one only outlet from reality. I am grateful that I can involved in the holiday.
I appreciate you found the different color tones in their play. I caught myself thinking, which also heard any paint. Despite some flaws myself tuning, the girls successfully completed the show
Glory MUSIC!

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2016278
01/17/13 06:33 PM
01/17/13 06:33 PM
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Niagara Region, On. Canada
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Originally Posted by rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.

On a positive note, if someone can stomach a G-D 5th (in EBVT III)that beats twice as fast as a normal ET 5th without feeling like a person looking at the bottom of their shoe in a dog park, Maxs' temperament could be a calling card for a glitzy cyrillic name like CиKT 1... Случайные избиение казахско темперамент. Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.


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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery] #2016341
01/17/13 09:05 PM
01/17/13 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Emmery
... Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.
So that's what it is. 'Pretty good. Kazakhstan gave us the apple tree, and now a whole new temperament to argue about.


David L. Jenson
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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery] #2016381
01/17/13 10:04 PM
01/17/13 10:04 PM
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Maximillyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Случайные избиение казахско темперамент.

In Russian it sounds like this:
"Случайные биения казахской темперации"

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016382
01/17/13 10:05 PM
01/17/13 10:05 PM
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I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!




Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2016407
01/17/13 11:04 PM
01/17/13 11:04 PM
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Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by rxd
Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing


I said before: If I want to hear a sermon I'll go to church.

Maybe I'll change my mind on that rxd; I really enjoyed this online sermon by you.

Kees

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob] #2016426
01/17/13 11:55 PM
01/17/13 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.


Yes, of course, that is indeed the most likely case but it is more than that. I was mainly listening to the whole different approach to the keyboard each of them had different styles of attack giving different colours other than the key color and the balance of parts that can disguise to some extent the variances of the tuning even on the same notes. (a friend of mine used to say ' it's a different piece but it has a lot of the same notes').
I
Originally Posted by Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!


I've wondered that myself, Bob, in fact, we were ridiculed for helping Max on a private thread in another forum and who knows where else. Attempts at ridicule really don't matter in the long haul.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016434
01/18/13 12:12 AM
01/18/13 12:12 AM
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""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?[/quote] ""

Im sure you already figured it out but, for future reference, Max, the aliquots that are half the speaking length are tuned an octave higher, the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. The aliquots in the newer pianos are only in the top section and can be more clearly heard than in the old ones and the are all unisons. It is often possible to disguise a false beat by carefully placing the aliquot. Always on the sharp side, though.

Last edited by rxd; 01/18/13 04:50 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016519
01/18/13 04:40 AM
01/18/13 04:40 AM
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France
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Those aliquot strings are tuned similarly as the "ballast" string in a common unison, just by changing the shape of the envelope of the tone (I mean no need to pluck the aliquot string unless it is grossly out of tune)

I feel the aliquot is there to embarrass the unison, by taking some energy from it it is energized. SO I trust RXD that it can help to hide a false beat


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016568
01/18/13 08:29 AM
01/18/13 08:29 AM
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London, England
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I'm loving the mental picture of an embarrassed unison! laugh

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016603
01/18/13 09:43 AM
01/18/13 09:43 AM
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Some of the old style aliquots were an embarrassment when they got old. It seemed to me that the brass post got loose in the bridge and didn't transfer the vibrations. They just went thunk when plucked and had no sustain. The new ones are audible and sustain as well as the struck strings and are not such an embarrassment to the unison. I, too, like that poetic way of saying it.

Last edited by rxd; 01/18/13 09:45 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Phil D] #2016610
01/18/13 09:54 AM
01/18/13 09:54 AM
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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2016842
01/18/13 06:14 PM
01/18/13 06:14 PM
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Jakobstad, Finland
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Hi Max (and all others, too),

you are getting a lot of good suggestions from other posters here. I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off. I recorded my piano tonight, and here are the sound files:

First, I tuned the left and right strings of D4 to the center string with an electronic tuning device. After that, the unison sounded like this:
L/R strings tuned to center string, Reyburn Cybertuner

There is a little bit of sizzling partials there, so I checked the single strings. They sounded like this:
D4, strings one-by-one

The left string was indeed a bit "busy" in itself. I tweaked the unison aurally, and this is what I came up with:
L/R to center string, aurally

Then I detuned the right string +1 cent and the left string -1 cent, giving a unison that is 2 cents wide in its frequency range:
Detuning the unison: L -1 cent, R +1 cent

Can you hear how that unison "moans"? It sounds like there's an effect on it, like a chorus or flanger pedal used for guitars.

I tuned them back, and I post that file, too. You can hear how I'm working with the tuning hammer and with the hand hitting the keys. When the strings fall into place, the sound is longer, clearer and more powerful than if the strings do not couple with each other:
re-tuning the unison

This is the kind of sound you should be looking for in your unison tuning. Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Hope this helps,
Patrick




Last edited by pppat; 01/18/13 06:15 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pppat] #2017072
01/19/13 03:58 AM
01/19/13 03:58 AM
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Maximillyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pppat

I would like to contribute by showing the difference between a well-tuned unison and a unison that is 2 cents off.
Start listening for that long, clear, and calm sound, and you will soon start to find it in your own tunings!

Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?
Thank you for your message. Fortunately I understand things about "wrong-sounding in choirs." You have done a great job of creating these audio files. I will post them on my website. I hope this will be helpful in understanding the piano unison Russian-speaking beginners tuner.
Sincerely,

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2017163
01/19/13 10:10 AM
01/19/13 10:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Translation from Finnish, the language Max adressed me in when he wrote his last post:

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Patrick, greetings from Kazakhstan. I am very grateful for your free advice. I'd like to ask how you liked the piano music in the concert?


'Hi Max smile I liked the music and the playing, but honestly speaking the piano was in a shape that no doubt made it hard to make good music on it. This set aside, the concert was admittedly an experience to the audience, and that might be most important of all.'

Last edited by pppat; 01/19/13 10:14 AM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: pppat] #2017193
01/19/13 11:09 AM
01/19/13 11:09 AM
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Maximillyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pppat
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Patrick,Terveisiä Kazakhstana. Maksim erittäin mielelläni sinua ilmaisia ​​neuvoja. Halusin kysyä, miten pidit pianomusiikkia konsertissa?


Terve Max smile Pidin musiikista ja soittamisesta, mutta piano oli rehellisesti sanoen sellaisessa kunnossa että oli varmasti vaikeaa tehdä hyvää musiikkia sillä. Tätä huolimatta konsertti oli varmasti elämys kuuntelijoille, ja sehän on ehkä kuitenkin tärkein.

Patrick,ymmärsin sinut. Temperamentti tulevaisuudessa yritän tehdä sen hyvin hyvä

Last edited by Maximillyan; 01/19/13 11:10 AM.
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: BDB] #2017195
01/19/13 11:15 AM
01/19/13 11:15 AM
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Maximillyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BDB
I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.

BDB,I have nothing against you personally. If I am offended you, I apologize

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery] #2017198
01/19/13 11:23 AM
01/19/13 11:23 AM
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Maximillyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Emmery
I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot

Routine Max's days

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