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#2015535 - 01/16/13 03:01 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by BDB
"Not adequate" is an honest assessment. What you call tuning is an insult to the pianists who have to put up with it. It is an insult to those who have sent you equipment and have tried to help you, and "insult" may be too soft a term. You could be an outright fraud.


The equipment sent to Max did not involve anyone but myself and a fellow in Sweden.

The below was posted by Max on January 14th. It seems to me from what I read apparently the instrument was low pitch the day previous to the concert and some strings were replaced.

Originally Posted by Emmery
Dear Emmery, I am glad to receive your message. I sorry that you have to devote a lot of time analyzing my clip's tuning.
I took tuning a grand because really wanted to do it. In our country town no professional piano tuner and music school administrator asked me made temperament. My fee was $ 13. «Bluthner" for many years set (A = 438). Prior to the concert was less than a day. I began to move with this tone, because he was afraid to break the strings. Replace torn, there is no opportunity here. After the concert, I checked temperament. I did not catch the big differences for yourself. Fa3 note was slightly lower. Good not sounded as H4, F# 4 so. I did a temperament as I could. I will heed the advice of tech. experts for increase their own skills.


If the instrument was pitched corrected a couple of weeks previous to the concert, and then fine tuned the day before I suspect the initial recording would have come out sound better than it has.


Dan Silverwood
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
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#2015548 - 01/16/13 03:11 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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One should not make excuses for a recording posted as an example of how well someone tunes. If it is a lousy tuning and you know it, there is no need for feedback. The only tunings that should be posted for feedback are one's best.


Semipro Tech
#2015555 - 01/16/13 03:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Max does not have any peers nor does he have a mentor. What he does have is intermittent access to this forum.

If stomping on the guy is viewed as a pleasurable and stimulating experience then Max is not the only one I feel compassion for.


Dan Silverwood
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2015611 - 01/16/13 04:22 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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It would be better if he learned to criticize himself, but Max needs to accept criticism rather than being insulted by it, and being insulting about it. His improvement would be much better, and I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.


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#2015644 - 01/16/13 05:16 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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His cantankerousness reminds me of you, BDB... wink

But you're right. Unfortunately he's been doing this a long time without having any peers, and is very proud of what he does.

Teaching him to tune properly across a massive language barrier over the internet is a big task!

#2015669 - 01/16/13 05:44 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by BDB
It would be better if he learned to criticize himself, but Max needs to accept criticism rather than being insulted by it, and being insulting about it. His improvement would be much better, and I would find more pleasure and stimulation in helping him if his attitude were better.


On free forums, I assist without expectation or conditions attached. If there are certain conditions to having involvement then perhaps a re- assessment is necessary on your part.


Dan Silverwood
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2015697 - 01/16/13 06:27 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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A couple suggestions, first for Max...

Keep working at it. Study some more about tuning, you still have a long way to go. Ignore insults. If you are going to post a tuning, maybe record a before and after tape. It lets people put things in better perspective of what conditions the pianos are in that you face. I worked in parts of eastern europe 20 years ago where I lifted the lid on the piano and I swear, it could have flown away on its own from all the moths that came out. Missing or rusted strings, felt held in place with snot, shoelace/pully trap work ect.... A shoemaker was my only source for materials.

For others, maybe follow the golden rule. People from Germany don't come here to this site and ridicule Y'all for the N.A. version of a half a**ed repair, laugh at the powder wig temperaments, or comment on digital spinner crutch tuning clips. They prefer to sit around a table and spray beer out of their noses laughing instead.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#2015719 - 01/16/13 07:06 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Quote

Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


Max doesn't accept constructive criticism. Instead, he gives it.... to us... The people he is asking for help. For example, like using cardboard to fix a loose tuning pin instead of a larger sized pin, then tuning the piano a semi tone flat because it won't take the pitch raise? He tells us that a larger sized pin will do damage to the hole. A person like that is not going to get much respect from us and we, should not be expected to give it either. But I can, leave this thread and Max to his own demise, whatever that might be and I will.

Kamin says Max has been in here for 2 years now so, he's more experienced. 2 years gives experience? I've known people that have been tuning pianos for 30 years and they still can't tune.

So how many years haven't some of the rest of us been tuning? Me? Since I was 12. That makes it 45 years this spring. I should be reallllllllllllllllllly good by now eh??? haha! smile

If a person wants constructive and objectionable criticism and asks for it, then that same person had better accept it rather than argue with people that are telling him that his tuning needs improvement. Don't tell me that it sounds good and that out of tune unison's sound okay when they do not. Because we will not agree.

So Max, if you want people to be nice to you? Be nice to them.... OK?


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#2015729 - 01/16/13 07:20 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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accordeur Online content
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I wanted to help Max at first. I even put up a youtube video to show how to rebush a flange.

One tech even sent him a hammer. His videos afterwards, he was still using his t-bar.

The language barrier is what kept me hoping that he was genuinely interested in improving.

Now, language barrier or not, geez.

Max, I never get to the end of your videos. I don't understand a word, you look like you are teaching a lesson, and you obviously are not good enough to do that.

Listen to the good advice that is given here. Be grateful, ask questions.

Who knows? You started a topic and some of us are still writing.

All the best.

Jean




Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#2015823 - 01/16/13 10:40 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development

Speaking as a musician with a lifelong interest in tuning, not as a piano technician, I think this sounds fine. Given the state of the piano, which is not up to USA concert standards, it is not clear if you could do better with just tuning (as opposed to revoicing etc). I believe Kamin from France believes this too.

When I listen I am more concerned with the excessive tempi and the seriousness of the playing. After all Mozart was a silly drunk, and his compositions show it. It should not be played as if it was profound. (Warning: peculiar personal opinion.)

There are definitely unisons which stand out as being "bad". But as you mentioned before, this can be due to the "cross sections" not matching, meaning false beats. I can (and will if requested politely) post a unison A3 on my piano, which sounds worse than the "bad" unisons in your recording. Yet if 5 top piano tuners from the Western world would spend 3 hours on it they would not be able to improve it. (They are of course not allowed to replace the strings.)

Why? Because the strings don't match (what the DBD anymous poster said "should not be so").

Now listening to the Mozart I can hardly believe this is the same tuning as you posted before because it sounds so much better. But it may be my own mind that likes music. The compositions played in the first video of this concert I do no consider to be music. This is my (admittedly eccentric) opinion.

More generally I think if you had not tuned that Blüthner there would have been no concert. So obviously you did a good thing. Did it have 4 strings in the upper octave? Did you tune those too? The piano sounds worse to me in the upper octaves.

Finally, did the concert organizer and piano teachers of the players give you any feedback on the tuning?

After all a piano tuner should make the customer happy, and that is the most important thing.

Another good result of your post is that Dan Silverwood made some good posts. I thought I hated him, but this made me change my mind.

Tongue in cheek of course on the latter remarks.

Kees




#2015826 - 01/16/13 10:46 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: MU51C JP]  
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Originally Posted by Johnkie
If Max actually did tune this grand for the concert, I must admit that he has most certainly improved.

Thank,Johnkie for good words and max works

#2015834 - 01/16/13 10:57 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]  
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development



Now listening to the Mozart I can hardly believe this is the same tuning as you posted before because it sounds so much better.

Thank,Kees.I'm shall try and develop skills

#2015843 - 01/16/13 11:17 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
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Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Quote

Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


So Max, if you want people to be nice to you? Be nice to them.... OK?

Max, always pleasure with all

#2015871 - 01/17/13 12:59 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing


Last edited by rxd; 01/17/13 01:10 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2016043 - 01/17/13 10:27 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
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Originally Posted by rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum

#2016050 - 01/17/13 10:41 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum


I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

#2016057 - 01/17/13 10:53 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]  
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rxd

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.
Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Not all pianos in the forgotten by God Kazakhstan to tuning in the right tone. However, the message rxd is a philosophical essay, mobilizes the presence of mind of Max.
Max is very happy that him was able its modest presence on the forum make a live stream in the discussions every themes.
Max will work and he shall listen all
My respect to the participants in our forum


I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?


ando,I personally have not seen the movie, just a few excerpts. I'm not offended by Borat, art lies in the fact that to make people think from joke. To tell the truth, the life in Kazakhstan is much "comical than this travesty"

#2016069 - 01/17/13 11:18 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: ando]  
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Originally Posted by ando

I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

A couple of years ago I caught up with a cousin who immigrated from Moscow in the Seventies. She grew up in Kazakhstan thanks to Stalin's anti-Semitic purges, but eventually her father was able to reclaim his appointment as a professor of music at Moscow State University. She's a very proper and respectable lady and I didn't dare ask her about Borat. Of course the joke in the film is meant to be that Baron-Cohen's victims are so ignorant, but I'm sure a lot of people never catch on to that subtlety.

Andy

#2016079 - 01/17/13 11:34 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: DoelKees]  
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KZ
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Kamin

I suspect Max does not want to WORK tuning, as he may have some results if he did follow a little the advices given.


Max asks the people of good will, if it is possible to listen to the next clip of the same concert. I think Mozart will identify inaccuracies temperament. Your constructive criticism will allow Max's professional development


More generally I think if you had not tuned that Blüthner there would have been no concert. So obviously you did a good thing. Did it have 4 strings in the upper octave? Did you tune those too? The piano sounds worse to me in the upper octaves.

Finally, did the concert organizer and piano teachers of the players give you any feedback on the tuning?

Hi,Kees. The concert was held to the weather."Show must go on". This grand, how to express their feeling of one of the teachers of piano last time sounded like far in 1982, when visited Uralsk was moscow's tuner. I was pleased to hear the words of appreciation from the audience, and most importantly from artists of Chrismas concert .
Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?

#2016085 - 01/17/13 11:43 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: AndyJ]  
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Originally Posted by AndyJ
Originally Posted by ando

I've never met anybody from Kazakhstan, but I always wanted to know how Kazakhstanis feel about the movie "Borat"? Are you angry about it?

Of course the joke in the film is meant to be that Baron-Cohen's victims are so ignorant, but I'm sure a lot of people never catch on to that subtlety.

Andy,Borat and Kazakhstan do not know about each other it's to happiness

#2016091 - 01/17/13 11:58 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2016109 - 01/17/13 12:28 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
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Originally Posted by rxd


To be fair, Borat also pokes fun at some areas of American culture, as I remember.


Indeed. Much more so than Kazakhstan in fact.

#2016111 - 01/17/13 12:30 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
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Originally Posted by rxd
The hall in your videos intrigues me. Is it a school hall, church hall, town hall??

As in most places, there are many different cultural levels. Your area of Kazakhstan doesn't seem to lack some of the finer things in life, Max.

I have always advised listening to many pianists playing the same instrument to demonstrate how much of the tone quality is dependent on the player. Here is a good example where many of us could swear that the piano had some tuning before the last clip. All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


This school of music hall of Uralsk. Girls graduates of this school. Now they continue their education at various conservatories in Russia and Kazakhstan. While on vacation, they visited a hometown.
Beautiful things around us is an illusion given to us in sensation. We must create a celebrate within ourselves despite "gloomy atmosphere around us." In Uralsk music concerts is one only outlet from reality. I am grateful that I can involved in the holiday.
I appreciate you found the different color tones in their play. I caught myself thinking, which also heard any paint. Despite some flaws myself tuning, the girls successfully completed the show
Glory MUSIC!

#2016278 - 01/17/13 06:33 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
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Originally Posted by rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.

On a positive note, if someone can stomach a G-D 5th (in EBVT III)that beats twice as fast as a normal ET 5th without feeling like a person looking at the bottom of their shoe in a dog park, Maxs' temperament could be a calling card for a glitzy cyrillic name like CиKT 1... Случайные избиение казахско темперамент. Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#2016341 - 01/17/13 09:05 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery
... Random Beating Kazakh Temperament.
So that's what it is. 'Pretty good. Kazakhstan gave us the apple tree, and now a whole new temperament to argue about.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2016381 - 01/17/13 10:04 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Случайные избиение казахско темперамент.

In Russian it sounds like this:
"Случайные биения казахской темперации"

#2016382 - 01/17/13 10:05 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Florida
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!

#2016407 - 01/17/13 11:04 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd]  
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DoelKees Offline
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DoelKees  Offline
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,446
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by rxd
Not only has Max improved in 2 years but, in looking back through his original threads, they have been an incredible catalyst for change in all of us.

Max was met with incredibly parochial self righteous condemnation from some posters. It became clear very early that the only way was through education.

This attempt at education has tempered those condemning attitudes, those same people are now posting advice and encouragement.

It has been said that travel broadens the mind. The cultural differences between all of us that were brought out and explored in the process of helping Max has quietly and gradually changed all of our attitudes. It has been a journey in itself without having to go anywhere.

Thanks, Max, for being so delightfully annoying, arrogant, stubborn, sensitive,.....

Something had to change.... and we did.

Here's to its continuing


I said before: If I want to hear a sermon I'll go to church.

Maybe I'll change my mind on that rxd; I really enjoyed this online sermon by you.

Kees

#2016426 - 01/17/13 11:55 PM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Bob]  
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rXd Offline
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rXd  Offline
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by rxd
... All three pianists made different tone colours. The last one could even make a piano sound more in tune. I've heard it work the oposite way, too.


Piece being played was in a different key, most likely case. A bit of a topsy turvy temperament will do that.


Yes, of course, that is indeed the most likely case but it is more than that. I was mainly listening to the whole different approach to the keyboard each of them had different styles of attack giving different colours other than the key color and the balance of parts that can disguise to some extent the variances of the tuning even on the same notes. (a friend of mine used to say ' it's a different piece but it has a lot of the same notes').
I
Originally Posted by Bob
I'm starting to wonder is Max is for real. Somewhere, someone is laughing at all of us!


I've wondered that myself, Bob, in fact, we were ridiculed for helping Max on a private thread in another forum and who knows where else. Attempts at ridicule really don't matter in the long haul.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2016434 - 01/18/13 12:12 AM Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan]  
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rXd Offline
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rXd  Offline
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Posts: 2,553

""Indeed I tuning alivkvont fourth string, which is higher than the other one octave higher. I did it intuitively, some of them were so configured. I tried not to make a mistake and I did pulling the string an octave higher. Maybe I'm wrong to do this?[/quote] ""

Im sure you already figured it out but, for future reference, Max, the aliquots that are half the speaking length are tuned an octave higher, the ones where the speaking length is the same are tuned unison or a little higher. The aliquots in the newer pianos are only in the top section and can be more clearly heard than in the old ones and the are all unisons. It is often possible to disguise a false beat by carefully placing the aliquot. Always on the sharp side, though.

Last edited by rxd; 01/18/13 04:50 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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