Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Are pianos decreasing in value? (piano burning)

The grand bookcase is very handsome. Flattened brass instruments can become art. I have a french horn on my wall, with the rim of the back of the bell bent up, and it is a delightful planter for ivy. But, that only recycles about .0001% of dead instruments.

May all of the others R.I.P.

Well the problem exists because people call the pros out to look at their piano like lets say a 1914 Richmond just to pick a name out. The tech walks in and stops 25 feet from the piano and exclaims... " It's older than 1959 so it can't be tuned". Does this happen? Yes and we document each time it does... Last year we had over 2300 instances of this within a 900 mile radius and people paying for a service are pretty put off by that.

So they call another guy who walks in, pitch raises and tunes it and the people are happy with it. That is why you have all these people writing in to these boards. I think when those techs realize that not every single person on earth plays die hard whiz bang classical or Chopin or is interested in Victorian Temperments then maybe there will be a realization that those antique boat anchors are still useful.

There has been a massive re-surgence in antique uprights. Who wants them? I have 6 filing cabinets behind me with NDAs Non disclosure agreements from big name recording artists. They love antique uprights, they dont care what they look like, they just want them to play the type of music they play. Oh and keep in mind these same people do have that 9 ft Steinway or equivilant but other famous people go to parties, they see the old boat anchor piano and they want one. This "fad" if you want to call it that drives some people crazy that think there should be something new in it's place but the guy playing knows what he wants.

Not trying to put anyone off but someone said no one is listening to advice and they are listening to all the different opinions. So sure some get burnt, some go to the dump. Some are used for photo and video and some go back into service. I'm pretty sure LOTS of them go pre-maturely

The old uprights certainly had one thing going for them -- the laws of physics.

Other things being equal (and often they are not) a piano with longer strings and full-size action parts and keys will sound better and play better than one with shorter strings and keys. So that is a plus on the side of the old uprights.

On the down side is the reality that in many cases the components have outlived their normal life. Then the question becomes one of how good does it need to be, for whom and for how long? Properly determining these answers will produce a reasonable course of action. In the case of a child taking lessons, my criteria are that they need consistent touch and tone and the thing should last for a few years. How much to get there? When it approaches the cost of a more modern decent used home piano, the economics just aren't there.

On the other hand, if someone wants to get to the performance level of a new M&H upright or a S&S model K, you can get to that performance level for much less than the cost of new or slightly used. I just did an old upright restoration for a young woman just out of college on an Ivers & Pond. The piano will blow any cheap grand piano out of the water -- and she has well less than $5000 into it.

When someone calls with a need to get a piano out of the house immediately, and the piano is in poor condition, I'm afraid there simply isn't an active market justifying an alternative to the landfill.

So, there are different answers to the question of what the value of an old upright might be.

The problem is that they don't just call in the "pro's." More often than not, they call in the half pro's. People that will do anything for a buck. Tell them anything they want to hear. They will tune it 1/2 tone flat without even trying to raise it to pitch. They will tune it wherever. They will spend money fixing something that isn't worth fixing just because it's money in the 1/2 pro's pocketbook.

A real pro comes in and may, or may not, condemn it as the other person probably should have done if they were honest about it to begin with but, they weren't.

That's where the confusion comes in. Why didn't so and so condemn it? Well? I can't and won't be responsible for that persons actions. That's their responsibility, not mine. I just tell it like it is and answer the questions according to what's right and what's not right giving my most honest opinion of the situation under all given circumstances.

I first entered the piano market in retail sales in 1976. My livelihood quickly transitioned toward tuning, service, and rebuilding. Back then there were a few dealers who dumped every upright they could, just as Keith Akins said his father used to do. At that time, probably 80% of the uprights I saw were salvageable. In the south, some uprights were "native" but many had been transported from the northeast after having been bought from wholesalers. We are all familiar with the "cut-down" mirror uprights which we dread seeing, but many of these imports from the northeast were just spruced up, had new keytops and bridles put on, and sold as beginner pianos.

Fast forward to today and at least 80% of the uprights I see are not practically salvageable. Depending upon criteria and intended use that percentage can be higher.

HOWEVER,...
This past Saturday I saw an upright- one of the many Hallet Davis products, but not that name on the fall board - which the family wanted to rebuild. It had been the late grandfather's piano. His daughter plays piano. Her daughter and son-in-law both play. When asked about cost to make that piano do what they would require, my reply was "$4K to $7K, since you want the piano to be a solid musical instrument again.” When I sent the formal letter with firm prices, the two options were very close to that range. I enclosed a bill for my time. (The lesser option simply delayed some of the work until later.)

When I was asked what the value of the rebuilt piano would be I said, "No, you could not come near to recovering your investment. The piano is worth only what value your family places on it. You can buy a piano to replace it for not much more money.” I gave them a couple of examples of particular instruments and gave them an idea of what the post-haggling prices might be on those new models. I also told them that the piano was beyond patches and minor work. It was 112 years old and worn out.

With that clear picture painted for them, will they do work on it? I doubt it. If they do call, however, I will do which ever option they choose. I will enjoy doing it and will warranty the work for five years. They will enjoy the piano.

If they don’t do the work, I deeply hope that it does go to the landfill.

Hey, I resemble that remark! Of course, I am the other half of that half-pro, the one who knows the stuff, but does not need the money, as opposed to the one who needs the money but does not know the stuff!

So, you're telling me that you're stuffed full? You'd make a good teddy bear BDB!

A lot of people tell me I am full of stuff!

Can you tell us more about that? I'm amazed to hear of such a dumb idea originating in a state other than California.... ;-)

If used piano sales are outlawed, only outlaws will sell used pianos??? ;-)

Decreased in value? Today I couldn't give away a bunch of Steinway uprights. We need to make room in our shop, and as we like our neighboring rebuilders we thought they might want them. They are in rough, original condition, but I was offering them to professional rebuilders. I thought at least one of them would want at least one of them. I'm still a little shocked. I knew the upright market was weak, but when free Steinways don't spark any interest it implys collapse.
Before our economic malaise, we all put out many nice rebuilt uprights. As many as you could, as nicely as you cared to. The market was there for quality at a premium. So I guess we could easily have flooded the local market, and our past work has become our worst competitor. But this never seemed to be the case with Steinways. There was always a demand for those, not always ravenous but never absent.
Its like the entire industry is eroding from the bottom up.

If you were in Austin, I would grab one in a heartbeat for DIY tinkering.

The equivalent in the UK was the vogue in the 1950s for "modernising" old overdamper pianos. Corners were rounded, inlaid top panels replaced with plain, fancy "trusses" replaced with plain curved legs. And usually nothing was ever done to renovate the action or anything inside. There pianos are now 60 years older, but have casework which fools people into thinking they are 60 and not 130 years old. One customer a few years ago refused to believe me that hers was one of these, insisting that her parents had bought the piano brand new in 1957 (I was brand new that year myself). When I found a 1918 date stamped on the filthy worn-out old action, she was finally convinced.

Generally I'd rather encounter a 130 year old birdcage piano that had NOT been "modernised" that one that has. But prefer not to encounter them at all! (This after a week in which I wrestled with several).

Suppose a piano dealer and a piano maker put together a program to rid a market of beat up pianos. Get all the techs, movers, and teachers in the market on board.

Trade in an old piano and get $$ incentive towards a new acoustic piano - (not digital)

Or---trade in that digital for a new acoustic.

I do see one problem with that - in my market, sales are 75% digital, 25% acoustic, so stores and customers would probably want to trade in that old upright for........a digital

When I sold my previous shop/warehouse building I discarded 18 uprights. Among them were four self players with all the mechanism still intact. I was shocked to find no demand at all from rebuilders on the players. One of Georgia's best reproducer/player restorers told me that he is still doing rebuilds for owners of the players, but he had not done one to sell in years.

Changing times.

Consider this old clunker:

Wellington upright made in 1911.
Major work by me in 1979.
Has iron wound bass which we merely rejuvenated back then.
Did dampers, keytops & bushings & bed felt
Shaped the hammers, bridles, various other stuff.
High end refinish job.

In the year 2000 did set of hammers and major repinning.

Played by active church pianist over these years.
Now the bass has gone dead again (which really happened at least ten years ago). It has been at standard pitch the entire time. Even the wood upper bridge assembly is still solid and crack free

The family wanted this piano back in 1979. Do you think that, just maybe, it was worth the investment? When I first mentioned the need of new hammers the year was 1993. They finally had them done seven years later. I guess I better mention the need of the new strings right away, huh?!

Since 1991 I had five player pianos sitting here. No call for them at all for over fifteen years.

Then in 2008 I got a call for a photo shoot, so one went out at 100 per day for a month. Shortly thereafter sold one to a hobbyist, and another one went to Vancouver Island.

The only constant is we can never predict the marketplace.

The economy sucks. I try my hardest not to bring any pianos into my shop that I must then have to sell. The best and most profitable use of my energies are on servicing outside pianos.

Gary,

If you are a professional, you should read this.

Changing times indeed....in the 60's-70's, a reproducing Steinway or M&H Grand would go for $30-45K depending on the size. It seems that the folks that were driving that market are fewer due to age etc. The yournger generation is just not that interested in the roll playing reproducers or player pianos. Part of the problem is also the music that is not available. One can only listen to the old music so long before it gets boring. However, in general, the piano is not considered as important as it once was, unfortunetly.

The modern reproducing pianos have a much better chance of making it into homes. A collegue of mine over in England, who owned a Bluthner Grand piano (not a player) from the 1920's, is selling the piano and buying a Yamaha Disklavier Grand. She told me that the Bluthner is not holding it's tuning anymore.

I know of 2 Steinway Reproducing Grands, one an XR and an OR, sitting on their sides in storage, everything original.....they may end up in the dump!~?! ?

The fact that the economy has been in the tank for years(and will be for the forseeable future), as well as there is a saturation of pianos, all contribute to the reason why you can't hardly get rid of a decent used piano these days.(much less sell one for a profit!) Gone are the days of the quick flip! As much as it sucks to be on the sales end of pianos, it is a BONANZA for piano technicians. If you work on pianos for a living, focus your efforts on THAT!