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#2019241 - 01/22/13 06:55 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Now that we have multiple pieces, I recommend putting the title of the piece you're talking about at the beginning of each post in bold, as I've illustrated in the previous post. That will help orient us for each post.


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#2019252 - 01/22/13 07:13 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: neildradford]  
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Originally Posted by neildradford
Edit 2: I have no problem with the timing in 'Happy Birthday', my main issue is when the left hand notes are played out of sync with right hand notes, particularly when notes are of short duration, or tied. Hope I'm making sense

I understand what you're saying. Any examples of pieces with this challenge? I'll keep my eyes, ears, and meagre arranging talents open for examples of this, also, to use on the thread.


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#2019374 - 01/22/13 11:13 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Happy Birthdays 3 and 4

a.k.a. Keys, Scales, and Chords

keystring wrote a post about keys and major scales which would be worth reviewing or reading at this point.

Happy Birthday 3 is in the key of G major. G major is the major key with one sharp (F#), the melody ends on G, and the final chord is a G major chord (notes: GBD, in any order).

Happy Birthday 4 is in the key of F major. F major is the major key with one flat (Bb), the melody ends on F, and the final chord is an F major chord (notes: FAC, in any order).

Some basic things to do to get familiar with a key, its scale, and its chords:

Find the scale. For example, for G major, start on G and check that if you ascend following the WWHWWWH pattern of whole steps and half steps, that the only sharp you need is F#. Listen to the sound this scale makes, ascending and descending.

Find the root position triads. For example, for G major, start on G: GBD. Start on A: ACE. Start on B: BDF#. And so on. Remember to use F#, not F natural. The last triad will start on F#: F#AC. What are the names of these triads? Which are major? Which are minor? Which are diminished? (Do you remember how to tell which are which?). Play and listen to the triads.

Now do the same thing for F major: verify the scale and work out the root position triads. Remember to use Bb, not B natural. Play and listen to the scale and the triads.

Now you have in your arsenal the names of the chords you need to identify the chords in Happy Birthday 3 and Happy Birthday 4. (You also have several more chords that haven't been used yet.)


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#2019392 - 01/22/13 11:49 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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The Pattern of Triads in a Major Key

Now that you've worked out the triads for C major (previously), G major, and F major, you may have started to notice some patterns. For example, each key has three major triads, three minor triads, and one diminished triad. The diminished triad always has for its root the seventh note of the major scale. And so on. What other patterns have you noticed?

Write the triads for each scale in order. Ideally, do this on staff paper and label them with their names.

key of C major: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim
key of G major: G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim
key of F major: F, Gm, Am, Bb, C, Dm, Edim

Amazing! They all have the exact same pattern of major, minor and diminished triads in order:

Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished.

If I use Roman numerals to say which note of the scale the triad is built on, this pattern is:

I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V, VIm, VIIdim

Just like with letter names for chords, an uppercase Roman numeral all by itself stands for a major chord. If it has an "m" after it, it stands for a minor chord. And if it has "dim" after it, it stands for a diminished chord.

This shorthand is useful because it allows me to talk in very compact ways about relationships between chords. For example, I could say:
  • In the key of C major, the Happy Birthday chords are C G G C; C F, C G, C.
  • In the key of G major, the Happy Birthday chords are G D D G; G C, G D, G.
  • In the key of F major, the Happy Birthday chords are F C C F; F Bb, F C, F.
  • And so on for each of the other 7 major keys in which a singer might ask you to play Happy Birthday.

Or I can just summarize all of that in one statement:
  • The Happy Birthday chords are I V V I; I IV, I V, I.

(I say "the" Happy Birthday chords, but of course this is just for the particular chords I chose for my arrangement.)


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#2019433 - 01/23/13 02:27 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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I'd recommend looking for (or writing - not too difficult*) another arrangement of Lili Marlene - your current PDF version has a timing rupture at the transition between bars 7/8 where the F chord , which should be at the beginning of bar 8, has been pushed 1 beat later thus putting the rest of the tune and the chord accompaniment out of kilter. It sounds so unnatural I'd be surprised if it doesn't cause confusion.

*or just adapt the existing but check youtube versions for the correct - or at least, more natural - rhythm for the melody.

Last edited by dire tonic; 01/23/13 02:45 AM.
#2019435 - 01/23/13 03:00 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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This topic has a funny link on front page's summary: Re: Starting out with anal...

Anyway, one day I will master those Happy Birthday chords on my piano and will be able to play it for my daughters at their birthday smile

#2019440 - 01/23/13 03:35 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: dire tonic]  
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Re: Lili Marlene
Originally Posted by dire tonic
- your current PDF version has a timing rupture at the transition between bars 7/8 where the F chord , which should be at the beginning of bar 8, has been pushed 1 beat later thus putting the rest of the tune and the chord accompaniment out of kilter.


I have this in MuseScore as a MSCZ file, so I can work on it quite easily. I'll put in this correction and add the bass clef staff that PS88 requested during the day tomorrow (It's late at night here right now).

I have several versions in MP3, mostly I listened to the 1939 Lale Andersen recording. It's the one that Rommel had played every night at 9:55 PM from Radio Belgrade during the North Africa campaign. Our side listened too, which is how the song became so well known. I tried to upload it, but got the Piano World broken link error screen yet again. Here's the site that has them:

http://ingeb.org/garb/lmarleen.html

Despite the error screen, it did upload here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/LiliM_1939_LAndersen.mp3

Last edited by JohnSprung; 01/23/13 04:54 AM.

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#2019445 - 01/23/13 03:53 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Artur Gajewski]  
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Originally Posted by Artur Gajewski
This topic has a funny link on front page's summary: Re: Starting out with anal...


That seems to hit the nail on the head!

#2019511 - 01/23/13 08:43 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: landorrano]  
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Originally Posted by landorrano
Originally Posted by Artur Gajewski
This topic has a funny link on front page's summary: Re: Starting out with anal...


That seems to hit the nail on the head!

If you are saying that Artur's statement that we see "starting out with anal.." in the subject header, accurately reflects that we see "starting out with anal...." then you are correct that this is what we all see.

#2019520 - 01/23/13 08:59 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]  
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Re: Lili Marlene
Originally Posted by dire tonic
- your current PDF version has a timing rupture at the transition between bars 7/8 where the F chord , which should be at the beginning of bar 8, has been pushed 1 beat later thus putting the rest of the tune and the chord accompaniment out of kilter.


I have this in MuseScore as a MSCZ file, so I can work on it quite easily. I'll put in this correction and add the bass clef staff that PS88 requested during the day tomorrow (It's late at night here right now).

I have several versions in MP3, mostly I listened to the 1939 Lale Andersen recording. It's the one that Rommel had played every night at 9:55 PM from Radio Belgrade during the North Africa campaign. Our side listened too, which is how the song became so well known. I tried to upload it, but got the Piano World broken link error screen yet again. Here's the site that has them:

http://ingeb.org/garb/lmarleen.html

Despite the error screen, it did upload here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/LiliM_1939_LAndersen.mp3



- the C 1/4 note at the beginning of bar 8 of your pdf should be the final 1/8 note at the end of bar 7. If you then advance everything from bar 8 forward by a 1/4 note you should be more or less there.

You're going to have to simplify this anyway because the recording you've linked to is verging on 12/8 time (a slight swing) while your PDF is a little bit confused on the meter (the dotted 1/8th+1/16 at the beginning of the melody can quite often imply 12/8 in modern piano copy ).

Since the melody and harmony are probably more important to you at this stage I would write the whole piece out using only 1/4 and 1/8 notes while allowing a slight swing feel to the discretion of the performer.



#2019528 - 01/23/13 09:12 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Lili Marlene

I've always seen Lili Marlene written in 4/4 time using dotted 1/8th + 1/16th.


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#2019529 - 01/23/13 09:12 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Lili Marlene - Analysis
Also, as I believe PS88 pointed out earlier, the posted arrangement has some embellishments which are not part of the main melody. Example second half of M5 and a couple of extra notes in M15. This is fine, but it may be good if someone would volunteer to play our final arrangement (if being posted again) and upload it here.

I know I like to always listen to what I am about to learn before I try to tackle it on the bench. With a posted performance it would line up with the arrangement (our score) and be in the correct key. All of the performances I have come across so far, have been in a different key.

At any rate here is one performance for easy access of how the tune goes.


#2019535 - 01/23/13 09:20 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Lili Marlene

Greener, when you say the performances are in a different key, are they all in a different key from each other? Or are they all in the same key, but it's not C major?

There's a standard rhythm and tune for Lili Marlene AIUI, and then performances you hear may stretch or modify that for interpretive purposes. I think it would be useful for us to have a score with the standard tune, rather than something more rhythmically and melodically complex that tries to capture a single performance.


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#2019537 - 01/23/13 09:21 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I've always seen Lili Marlene written in 4/4 time using dotted 1/8th + 1/16th.


Yes, but it's an approximation. Dotted 1/8+1/16 sounds much more fierce than is ever reflected in a performance. The singer's first two notes here are much closer to a pair of 1/8 notes. Vera Lynn's are triplet 1/8ths. Take your pick.

In any case, the main problem here is the error from bar 8 on.

#2019546 - 01/23/13 09:37 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Lili Marlene
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88

Greener, when you say the performances are in a different key, are they all in a different key from each other? Or are they all in the same key, but it's not C major?

There's a standard rhythm and tune for Lili Marlene AIUI, and then performances you hear may stretch or modify that for interpretive purposes. I think it would be useful for us to have a score with the standard tune, rather than something more rhythmically and melodically complex that tries to capture a single performance.

This one by Vera Lynn (recently posted,) I believe is in the key of G. Marlene Dietrich appears to like to do it in Eb (I think.) The key of C of course is fine, but agree that we may want to find a more straight up arrangement in terms of melody.


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#2019564 - 01/23/13 10:07 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Lili Marlene

While waiting for a revision of the melody from JohnSprung, we can play with the chords. We know they'll include C, C7, Dm, Dm7, G7, and C#dim.

C7, Dm7, and G7 are four-note chords.

For Dm7 and G7, chords in C major, you can form them the same way you did the triads: start with the triad, skip another white piano key, and add the next white piano key. This is just a quick and dirty way to get to these particular chords. We'll get into intervals and the universal interval definitions for chords soon, which will explain more generally how to find 7 chords.

Note that in Dm7 and G7 the new fourth note is 3 half-steps above the third note of the original triads Dm and G. That tells you how to find C7: start with the C major triad CEG. Then go up three more half-steps. What note do you find?

Note that the note you need to complete C7 is not part of the C major scale -- but it is part of the F major scale. Hmmmmmmm. When we talk more generally about 7 chords, we'll find out why.

For C#dim, count half steps: three half steps, then three more half steps. Notice that the C# is outside of the key of C major.

What notes do you find for the new chords C7, Dm7, G7, and C#dim?

Find all 6 of these chords at the piano. Experiment with different voicings. Here, "voicing" means a choice of which notes of the chord to use in which order, and how far apart. Practice moving from one chord to the next, in the order they appear on the Lili Marlene lead sheet, or in other orders. Experiment with voicings where the hand has to move very little (the root of the chord might not be the lowest note any more, to achieve this). Experiment with omitting one of the notes of the chord. Listen to the various sounds. Do you like some voicings more than others?

Practice notating the chords and at least some of the voicings you find.

(Note: "voicing" has at least two meanings in music. One is the way I used it above: which notes of the chord are chosen, in which order, and how far apart they are.

Another way "voicing" is used means which notes of a chord or piece are being brought out and made louder than the others. For example "voicing the melody" means making the melody more prominent.)


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#2019566 - 01/23/13 10:12 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Chord voicings

To illustrate voicing meaning choosing which notes of the chord to play and where: keystring's post on Chord Inversions shows several voicings of the C major chord.


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#2019582 - 01/23/13 10:47 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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For chord voicings, inversions is a must of course, since that is what you do to do voicings -- have a choice of which note goes on the bottom. There is more to it than that, but this is a beginning.

#2019583 - 01/23/13 10:49 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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I'm also thinking of voicings as things like your stretched out chords shown in your earlier post: for example instead of CEG all as close together as possible, play C (skip E) play G (skip C) play E (that one might take two hands). Or choosing to add the octave: instead of CEG, play CEGC. And so on.


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#2019600 - 01/23/13 11:34 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Exercise: Happy Birthday 3
(G major—since there is an F#--Fs are raised a half-step/tone)
1. GBD –Gmajor (tonic) I
2. DF#A-Dmajor (dominant) V
3. DF#A-Dmajor (dominant) V
4. GBD –Gmajor (tonic) I
5. GBD –Gmajor (tonic) I
6. CEG-Cmajor (subdominant) IV
7. DGB-Gmajor (2inversion? Tonic) I and DF#A-Dmajor (dominant) V
8. GBDG-Gmajor (tonic) I

And then the root position triads for G major:
Find the root position triads. For example, for G major, start on G: GBD. Start on A: ACE. Start on B: BDF#. And so on. Remember to use F#, not F natural. The last triad will start on F#: F#AC. What are the names of these triads? Which are major? Which are minor? Which are diminished? (Do you remember how to tell which are which?). Play and listen to the triads.

Root position triads for G major (remember F#):
1. GBD-Gmajor (tonic)I
2. ACE-Aminor
3. BDF# ???? When I write out the scale: BCDEF#GA I get HWWHWW for steps, so that doesn’t help because it doesn’t give me one of the patterns we went over above. So then I looked at the chord and counted semi-tones: B to D is 3 semitones. D to F# is 4 semitones. So, that is a minor chord….Bminor??
4. CEG-Cmajor (subdominant) IV
5. DF#A-Dmajor (dominant)V
6. EGB- Eminor
7. F#AC-?? This is three semitones on each side F# to A is 3 semitones, and A to C is three semitones, so is this a diminished chord? F#dim?

#2019602 - 01/23/13 11:36 AM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Exercise: Happy Birthday 4
(F major—since there is an Bb--Bs are lowered a half-step/tone)
1. FAC –Fmajor (tonic) I
2. CEG-Cmajor (dominant) V
3. CEG-Cmajor (dominant) V
4. FAC –Fmajor (tonic) I
5. FAC –Fmajor (tonic) I
6. BbDF-Bbmajor (subdominant) IV
7. C FA-Fmajor (2inversion? Tonic) I and CEG-Cmajor (dominant) V
8. FACF-Fmajor (tonic) I


Now do the same thing for F major: verify the scale and work out the root position triads. Remember to use Bb, not B natural. What are the names of these triads? Which are major? Which are minor? Which are diminished? (Do you remember how to tell which are which?). Play and listen to the scale and the triads.
Root position triads for F major (remember Bb):

1. FAC-Fmajor (tonic)I
2. GBbD-Gminor
3. ACE-Aminor
4. BbDF (subdominant) IV
5. CEG- Cmajor (dominant) V
6. DFA-Dminor
7. EGBb-3 semitones for each third that makes up this triad. So this seems to be a diminished chord? Edim

#2019646 - 01/23/13 12:47 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Happy Birthdays 3 and 4

Good work, Valencia. All your chords are correct.
Originally Posted by Valencia
3. BDF# ???? When I write out the scale: BCDEF#GA I get HWWHWW for steps, so that doesn’t help because it doesn’t give me one of the patterns we went over above. So then I looked at the chord and counted semi-tones: B to D is 3 semitones. D to F# is 4 semitones. So, that is a minor chord….Bminor??

Yes, this chord is B minor. Writing out BCDEF#GA won't particularly tell it to you, since that sequence isn't a major scale, as you saw by looking at the Whole step and Half step pattern. It also isn't a minor scale. In our present context, it's just "G major scale starting on B." Checking the half steps from note to note in BDF# will tell you the chord type, as you found.


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#2019654 - 01/23/13 01:07 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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The BDEF#GAB.... is for scales, not chords. Don't mix them up. The intervals that every major scale shares goes from tonic to tonic. But you're not concerned with scales here, you're looking at chords. That's the source of confusion at that point. smile

Last edited by keystring; 01/23/13 01:20 PM.
#2019695 - 01/23/13 02:45 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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We have barely touched on chords themselves, which may have caused the confusion in part of the last exercise. I suggest that for now we first look only at two chords in root position - MAJOR and MINOR CHORDS.

CEG is a major chord, while CEbG is a minor chord.

The distance between notes is called an interval. One way of measuring that distance is by counting how many piano keys we go from one note to the other. One piano key to another piano key is a "half step", and two piano keys make a "whole step".

So from C to E we have 4 half steps. From C to G we have 7 half steps. That makes up our major chord.

From C to Eb we have 3 half steps. From C to G we still have 7 half steps. That makes up our minor chord.

Please explore both the intervals and the chords. Play CEb, and play CE, and listen. Then also play CEG (C major) and CEbG (C minor) and listen. Also play CG, the interval between the outer notes which both have in common.

The most basic chord we usually learn first is the major and minor chord. Both have a 7 steps for the outer notes. The steps from the bottom to middle note are different. You could think of it as a sandwich that has a different filling, or a light switch where the middle note toggles up and down to give us major or minor. Play with this to be familiar with them.

very simple exploration of majors and minors at piano

My teacher has an exercise for beginner students to help them get their ears and hands familiar with major and minor chords. It goes like this:

White key major chords (only the white piano keys are used):
CEG
FAC
GBD

When you're used to that, lower the middle note to get the minors:
CEbG, FAbC, GBbD - toggle back and forth, and don't forget to listen.

All black:
F#A#C# (same thing is GbBbDb)

Oreo cookie chords (black on the outside, white in the middle)

EbGBb
AbCEb
DbFAb

lower the middle note for these as well to get the minor, and toggle

Reverse Oreos (white on the outside, black in the middle)
DF#A
EG#B
AC#E

ditto for minors

The two "odd" ones
BD#F# (white black black)
BbDF (black white wite)

and ditto

This is an exercise that you do over weeks, adding chords as you get comfortable. It coordinates theory first as something you hear and relates to the piano, and then as the names and categories of major and minor. These things should become part of you, and going too fast with too much information is overwhelming. At least that's how it was for me.

Last edited by keystring; 01/23/13 05:12 PM.
#2019700 - 01/23/13 02:58 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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A brief and incomplete note about intervals. In describing the interval from C to E, I wrote "4 half steps" instead of "major third". That is because we have what intervals are, and how they are named. In beginning theory this is simple, but later on it becomes important.

Let us look at our CE, which has an interval of 4 half steps. We call CE a "third" (as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd - not the fraction). E is the 3rd note over from the starting position of C. CEb is also a "third", because we are still counting letter names, and Eb is the 3rd letter name over from C. CE, with those notes on the staff, and those letter names, is called a "major 3rd". CEb, ditto, is called a "minor 3rd". The 4 half steps vs. 3 half steps is what gives them the quality of major or minor.

The outside of our sandwich, CG is a 5th because G is the 5th note over from C. It is called a "perfect 5th" or P5. Again, it's how many half steps which determine the kind of 5th. If it were CG#, CGb, C#G, then it would still be a 5th, but not a perfect 5th.

You will read "major 3rd" and "minor 3rd" so it's important to at least mention these names.

#2019709 - 01/23/13 03:13 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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I love that chord exploration of white/oreo/reverse oreo/others and toggling major/minor, keystring. I can tend to get too much into a world of symbols, and not enough exploring at the keyboard.

Also, intervals had been started to be mentioned, and I couldn't think of a more elegant way to say it than you have.


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#2019714 - 01/23/13 03:29 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Lili Marlene
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88

...
Experiment with different voicings. Here, "voicing" means a choice of which notes of the chord to use in which order, and how far apart.

OK, here is an idea I have for a couple of chords in this arrangement:

M13
C
LH - C one octave below middle C
RH - E,G,C in the octave above middle C

C7
LH - C, E one octave below middle C
RH - Bb, G (melody) straddling middle C

M14
C#dim
LH - C# one octave below middle C
RH - G, E (melody) straddling middle C

Dm7
LH - D one octave below middle C
RH - A, C, G (melody) straddling middle C

G7
LH - G 1.5 octave below middle C
RH - B, F (melody) straddling middle C

M15
C
LH - C two octaves below middle C
RH - E,G,C (melody is middle C)

I Like the sound of these open chords (IE. spread out.) Just one (my) interpretation for this section.


#2019718 - 01/23/13 03:40 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: JohnSprung]  
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Re: Lili Marlene Version 2
Originally Posted by dire tonic
- your current PDF version has a timing rupture at the transition between bars 7/8 ....


I put this fix in, and added the bass staff as PS88 requested. If the uploader worked, it'll be here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_LS_Analysis2.pdf

Something still doesn't feel quite right about the last three bars, but I can't put my finger on it.


Edit: I checked, the upload is there, despite another error message.


Last edited by JohnSprung; 01/23/13 03:42 PM.

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#2019724 - 01/23/13 03:50 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Yes, the uploader always gives an error page for some reason, but if you check your email it sends a working link showing it has succeeded.


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#2019732 - 01/23/13 04:15 PM Re: Starting out with analysis, all invited [Re: Greener]  
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Lili Marlene Version 2 - Analysis
Originally Posted by Greener

This is fine, but it may be good if someone would volunteer to play our final arrangement (if being posted again) and upload it here.
... With a posted performance it would line up with the arrangement (our score) and be in the correct key.



The following link is *NOT* me playing -- it's the digital output from the MuseScore program saved as MP3:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/Norbert_Schultze_Lili_Marlene_C_LS_Analysis2.mp3



Last edited by JohnSprung; 01/23/13 04:19 PM.

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