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I believe this is solely a software issue and has nothing to do with the action itself. My explanation is that the programmers didn't really think it through and when implementing resonance simulation they did damper resonance and "string resonance" (when key is pressed) separately and didn't take into account that these two phenomena "overlap" in the aforementioned scenario. Should they put some work into the resonance computation algorithm, this is easily fixable, but as there is probably little pressure from the customers, I suspect thay will not do it:-(
Another blatant omision is sympathetic resonance of duplex scale (undamped high keys), which is even easier to implement.
Not to mention the (far more alarming) error in the damper resonance I reported in the "CA95 makes humming noise" (unrelated to the original thread topic). I STRONGLY do hope that this will be fixed in the upcoming firmware update!

Considering that Kawai DPs are very highly regarded (which is well deserved), with excellent action, speaker system, feature set etc. - the acoustic simulation programming department should really put in some serious work to keep up with the rest of the team:-/

Well, very true, keyboards engeneering has a ballast of tradition. A marketing issue also, a hammer action should distinguish itself from the bad reputation of artificial synth keyboards.

One more very desirable feature to implement (besides lifting horizontal keys): phyisically changing weighting characterisitics throughout the keyboard, perhaps per zone (there are typically some 3-5 weight zones )...

Brilliant James.

This is a great discussion, it not only highlites some of the technical challenges of producing a great DP but also the subtleties of marketing and target market perception.

Personally I never take any notice whatsoever of the marketing blurb .... ok I lied about that, it gets me hook line a sinker everytime. But when I stop and think about it, if I wanted a piano with exactly the same geometry as a grand piano i'd have to buy a grand piano. What I want from a DP is something that feels right for me and meets my needs at a price I can afford.

So am I bothered whether marketing dept says it's like a particular GP when it isn't quite? No I'm not, and in anycase the precise geometry of a GP action probably wouldn't feel right in context of a DP until it incorporated other features and became a Hybrid.

So I'm happy if Kawai, Yamaha, Roland etc tell me it's like a GP. I'll take that to mean 'it's modelled on' and modified to fit a DP. I'll know if I like it when I try it.

Do all the keys have the same pivot length? On an acoustic grand they don't. The long bass strings require a deeper strike point, so the overall key length increases from treble to bass. Concert grands have the greatest variation, because they have the longest strings. The long keys have more mass, and move slower, but then again, who does fast trills in the deep bass.... ;-)

Umm, no....

Have you ever actually seen an acoustic action? If you had, you'd know that the keys are all the same length and that the harp is shaped in such a way as to position the correct strike point for the different string lengths. The hammers are heaver and larger in the bass - that's why the action is heavier there. Not because of varying key length. Beats me how people come up with this stuff.

In fact there exist grand pianos with longer keys in the bass region. See here

or here

I wonder with that picture, if you leaned a keyboard up and against the back of that setup so the hammers hit the keys, if that would make a cheapo hybrid piano

Hammers never hit keys. But if you think, if it is possible to use a piano action to build a hybrid piano? Of course!. See

and

That is not a typical piano design though. 99.9% of pianos use same length keys.

well, I've seen concert grand August Forster with this design and also C.Bechstein concert grand on their promotional video. So it looks like the design of difference in key lengths is not that un-typical at the end... See AF at least here: http://www.pianos.cz/sites/PIANOS.cz/repository/Image/galerie/images/img1532-large.jpg

They're just part of the 0.1% - and they are concert grands. Most pianos don't do this. Can I inspect one Ferrari and make the conclusion that all cars have a 600hp V12 engine? The statement I was responding to was:

"Do all the keys have the same pivot length? On an acoustic grand they don't. The long bass strings require a deeper strike point, so the overall key length increases from treble to bass."

It is stated as a rule for all pianos. But this is not true. It's only true for a small number of pianos.

Whether they're all the same length or whether some are slightly longer ... does it really matter? At all?

Not really!

I guess once the keys reach a certain length, perhaps further increases wouldn't be very noticable, or at least, not very important. And it's a simple matter of adding mass if we want to duplicate the feel as closely as possible of those huge bass keys & large hammers. Still interesting to know that the key length does vary on some pianos though.

Greg.

I recall when I asked about key length on the tuner's forum there was some discussion that when keys get long they begin to have too much flexibility, which can make them hard to play. It was a bit of a contentious issue, though, iirc. I think there's probably an optimal length.

It's another one of those moving targets because A) its subjective and B) in a complete key strike, it's one of dozens of critical measurements and ratios.

Like string length, there are limits due to material characteristics, but if you change the material, the result becomes foreign and no longer subjectively pleasing.

"when keys get long they begin to have too much flexibility, which can make them hard to play."

I can`t think of any DP where there`s a remote possiblilty o` that happening . . !

It is even very possible, that the given very long key length on a concert grands are not just for the sake of the playability at all, but as a compromise between playability and the need of having able to place the hammer where it can hit the string in an optimal position.

A given ratio of the two parts before and behind of the hammer point is regarded as optimal for sound quality and intensity.

I've seen a few, and measured my Knabe. It's 13 1/4" for key #1 (A0) and tapers down to 11 3/8" for key #88 (C8).

It's still in the extreme minority. Most are same length. The weighting of the keys and the heavier hammers account for the heavier response in bass notes. You must have inspected an unusual sequence of actions to have not seen that the vast majority that have the same key length. Or you've mostly seen very large concert grands.