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#2148055 - 09/11/13 06:32 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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On paper the first Db looks like confirmation of the bass and the A natural supports the melody but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision. In M6 the Bb does echo the melody and is made clear by the change and the D natural climbs to Eb, so there's rising semitones going on in three voices.

I understand that Chopin was inspired to write his Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66, by the Moonlight Sonata but it's interesting that the parallel opus number, 27/2, is in the tonic major!

I missed the three questions on the Moonlight. Any chance of a recap or summary instead of going back over the bit you changed since the last time I wrote and other cryptic wordage?

I've already given my own opinion on the climax in M27 and the reasons for it. I missed the melodic move to C# in M40 as it's out of sorts with the rhythm but I did notice the return of the tonic key and the incessant triplet rhythm, and the chromatic ending of the dom. prep. passage.

Last edited by zrtf90; 09/11/13 06:46 AM.

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#2148064 - 09/11/13 07:29 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.


I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.

#2148091 - 09/11/13 08:50 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
keystring, where would you put several climaxes (if you would)? Would you put in any climaxes at all?

I haven't worked through the piece that way, but I have a feeling that there are different choices, and that it depends on what you do with the piece as a whole.

I didn't have any particular choice in mind; I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the matter. You had deflected Polyphonist's single climax question, so I wondered if you had a different view on climaxes.


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#2148155 - 09/11/13 11:30 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]  
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
I'd be going for the Db, D nat, Eb.

(they could be partnered with A nat, A nat, Bb which precede but it's a different effect)

Those are the two I was thinking of. smile

Richard, my previous questions have already been answered in some way. I'm planning to do a few on interpretation and shape of phrases (since I find this is something that is lacking in a lot of performances). How about coming up with a few examples and posting them here for us? Any interesting inner voices anyone's found and would like to share? smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
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#2148168 - 09/11/13 11:51 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I have now listened to this movement ad infinitum, using Jean-Bernard Pommier's recording. I should listen to some other recordings, to see if there are differences in interpretation that I can notice. The flaw I think in listening so much to one recording is that now I have no independent ideas of my own for discovering the music. I suppose it's good to learn from a master, but it's a strange feeling.

Having listened to it and thought about Polyphonist's questions, I'm not sure I can answer interpretation questions in isolation (although I'm game to keep trying). Part of deciding interpretation, for me, depends on working out the harmony, which I haven't done yet. (We did it in the previous thread, but I need to refresh my memory and also approach it in a slightly different way.) I can't hear the harmony to distinguish where it's changing, so this is mostly a paper and pencil exercise for me. But it still gives me potential ideas for expression or what to try to listen for. In this movement I'm not sure if there are many variations in expression. Pommier has a slight crescendo on the ascending chromatic triplets, and a decrescendo coming back down, and there are a few momentary crescendos in the score that he observes, but for the most part it's very smooth and he lets the notes speak for themselves. He does have shaping (a slight or not so slight decrescendo) at the end of every phrase, which is very lovely.

One thing that surprised me listening to it was that the middle section in triplets looks so very busy, but in fact at Adagio it's very sedate and calm, just like the rest of the piece.


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#2148171 - 09/11/13 11:54 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
Part of deciding interpretation, for me, depends on working out the harmony, which I haven't done yet. (We did it in the previous thread, but I need to refresh my memory and also approach it in a slightly different way.) I can't hear the harmony to distinguish where it's changing, so this is mostly a paper and pencil exercise for me.

Well, which harmonies are you still not sure about?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2148174 - 09/11/13 11:59 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Any interesting inner voices anyone's found and would like to share? smile


I'll say!!

This blew me away, it still does. Katsaris playing Fantasie Impromptu, but listen to what he's doing at the return of the Presto (3:13).



It might not be beautiful music. Audacious definitely. Has anyone else ever played it like that?

#2148175 - 09/11/13 12:00 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Polyphonist, your pointing out this aspect of the music was a good thing to do. I'm glad that the specific thing you were after was finally named.

My difficulty with such questions is that I then try to interpret the question, try to figure out what the asker is after and what he meant with his words.

In the Moonlight itself, I saw the chromatic rise that you were trying to point out. I also saw two figures that echo each other, and these figures are notes that I would want to emphasize in my playing. I also see those figures within the context of that chromatic rise, and finally, I see a resolution - a reaching toward a destination, at which point the music changes its mood.

So among what I saw in those four measures, I saw the specific one that you were after. But how will I know WHICH THING of all these things, you are asking about? It may be better to actually mention number of things, rather than trying to find the answer to the one question.

#2148176 - 09/11/13 12:00 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Well, which harmonies are you still not sure about?

I don't have any specific questions right now.

I have to go through the whole movement looking at the chords, chord by chord. I want to start by listening for cadences and identifying them, and build from there. If I'm going to learn, I can't replace this work by just using a list of the chords, keys or harmony posted -- I need to work it through myself. Then I can use the list to check places I'm unsure of. Similarly with cadences: I want to go through the piece listening to hear where I can hear a cadence. Then I can check that against the list of cadences you posted. If I just start from your list and mark them in, I won't be learning anything about hearing or independent analysis.


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#2148197 - 09/11/13 12:21 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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dire tonic, thank you for posting the Fantasie Impromptu. Now I'm curious as to what led him to pick out those particular notes for emphasis at 3:13 ff. Would need a score to analyse it though; I can't figure it out just from listening.


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#2148204 - 09/11/13 12:33 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
dire tonic, thank you for posting the Fantasie Impromptu. Now I'm curious as to what led him to pick out those particular notes for emphasis at 3:13 ff. Would need a score to analyse it though; I can't figure it out just from listening.


Yes, do check it out. As I remember it, he was simply lengthening all notes that were physically possible to lengthen (basically the thumb notes of both hands, I think) - so it wasn't in any way an aesthetic judgement, i.e. some would say it's a cacophony. Yet it is a coherent but usually buried counter-melody. I love it.

#2148206 - 09/11/13 12:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
On paper the first Db looks like confirmation of the bass and the A natural supports the melody but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision. In M6 the Bb does echo the melody and is made clear by the change and the D natural climbs to Eb, so there's rising semitones going on in three voices.

Not only on paper, but if you audiate it as well. But you have to know what was asked in order to get at the wanted answer.
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I understand that Chopin was inspired to write his Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66, by the Moonlight Sonata but it's interesting that the parallel opus number, 27/2, is in the tonic major!

Having this information would have helped greatly. If I had those two excerpts side by side, knew one was inspired by the other, and if I was told to look for the one thing that they both did the same, then I would know which of the aspects that I see in the music to look for. Now the juxtaposition makes sense, and it is interesting.
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I missed the three questions on the Moonlight.

I know of two. One involved finding something in the melody embedded in those notes, which turns out to be the chromatic movement. The other was a red herring: we were to find "the climax" but Pp agreed later that there wasn't really one "the climax" which might have been the point being made.

hth

The things being brought out are indeed worthy of being mentioned.

#2148212 - 09/11/13 12:45 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I don't hear anything related to chromatic ascents in the Fantasie Impromptu, nor that would particularly lead me to think about emphasizing inner voices (even though I can clearly hear that a curious thing is happening at 3:13 ff).

This lack of hearing is not necessarily related to what is or isn't in the Fantasie Impromptu. I just don't hear music very well, at least as far as the aspects that other people seem to be able to hear and name.

The only thing I could say that Moonlight and Fantasie both do the same is that the LH is in triplets (at least I think the LH is in triplets -- what I seem to recall about the FI is that it's 4 against 3, with 4 in the RH and 3 in the LH). But that doesn't seem to be what's being talked about here. In any case, I can't actually hear what the counts of notes are in the FI; I just hear lots of notes flowing together in a very musical way.


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#2148224 - 09/11/13 01:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]  
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by zrtf90
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.


I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.
Aesthetic perception? I understood peripheral vision is better at detecting motion across all species.

I may have misunderstood the physics but I was using a colloquialism not trying to suggest we were sharing the same aesthetics and although I didn't single you out I was definitely not making assumptions about your perception, aesthetic or otherwise.



Richard
#2148247 - 09/11/13 01:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by zrtf90
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.


I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.
Aesthetic perception? I understood peripheral vision is better at detecting motion across all species.

I may have misunderstood the physics but I was using a colloquialism not trying to suggest we were sharing the same aesthetics and although I didn't single you out I was definitely not making assumptions about your perception, aesthetic or otherwise.



The metaphor is pretentious and inadequate for the effect the music has on me.

#2148250 - 09/11/13 01:50 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Any interesting inner voices anyone's found and would like to share? smile


I don't know how far you want to go with this but here's a fabulous feast of inner voices.



#2148357 - 09/11/13 05:18 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]  
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by zrtf90
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.


I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.
Aesthetic perception? I understood peripheral vision is better at detecting motion across all species.

I may have misunderstood the physics but I was using a colloquialism not trying to suggest we were sharing the same aesthetics and although I didn't single you out I was definitely not making assumptions about your perception, aesthetic or otherwise.



The metaphor is pretentious and inadequate for the effect the music has on me.
I wasn't writing about the effect the had on you but how I heard it. The change in the inner voice was easy for me to hear.

Many register movement quicker in peripheral vision than when looking straight at something. I didn't think the analogy was at all pretentious.

In future please consider that when I write 'our' I am writing in the plural or general sense and seldom, if ever, including all. You may assume for convenience that I never include you. In fact I think it's a bit presumptuous that you assume I did.



Richard
#2148384 - 09/11/13 06:01 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Yes, you’re right, it was presumptuous on my part – that was a mistake. Re-reading, I think it might have had something to do with the fact that I don’t understand what you’re getting at in that first sentence – none of it. By the time I got to the peripheral vision I was seeing stars and quite centrally at that. It still sounds meaningless to me but I don’t want to press any further. Maybe after the recital when heads will be clearer you or someone else can paraphrase it for me.

#2148398 - 09/11/13 06:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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NP. smile


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#2148476 - 09/11/13 09:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]  
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Any interesting inner voices anyone's found and would like to share? smile


I'll say!!

This blew me away, it still does. Katsaris playing Fantasie Impromptu, but listen to what he's doing at the return of the Presto (3:13).



It might not be beautiful music. Audacious definitely. Has anyone else ever played it like that?

I don't think so. And I don't like it. Too fancy and intellectual for me.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2148537 - 09/12/13 12:25 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I had seen a post suggesting that we post our ideas on interpretation. I made a mental note. I don't know if I can write up my ideas, because that's more something that you do rather than talk about, but was going to give it a shot if I could. And then there were these questions about climax and 3 notes in a section. I tried to answer those questions, but wondered why they were there. I looked back to see if I had misremembered the suggestion to post our ideas. I found a post that came after it:
Originally Posted by Pianostudent88
Would you like to get us started with the interpretation side? Perhaps throw out some questions for us to consider? Or an initial statement for us to reflect on?

So that's why there were these questions. Now I understand what they were about. I was so disoriented!

I liked the original idea of writing our ideas of interpretation. I may not always be right, but I tend to get my ideas directly from the music. So I'll go back to that.

#2148543 - 09/12/13 12:32 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]  
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Originally Posted by keystring
I had seen a post suggesting that we post our ideas on interpretation. I made a mental note. I don't know if I can write up my ideas, because that's more something that you do rather than talk about, but was going to give it a shot if I could. And then there were these questions about climax and 3 notes in a section. I tried to answer those questions, but wondered why they were there. I looked back to see if I had misremembered the suggestion to post our ideas. I found a post that came after it:
Originally Posted by Pianostudent88
Would you like to get us started with the interpretation side? Perhaps throw out some questions for us to consider? Or an initial statement for us to reflect on?

So that's why there were these questions. Now I understand what they were about. I was so disoriented!

I liked the original idea of writing our ideas of interpretation. I may not always be right, but I tend to get my ideas directly from the music. So I'll go back to that.

Please do. smile


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2148550 - 09/12/13 01:07 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: dire tonic]  
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Originally Posted by dire tonic

This blew me away, it still does. Katsaris playing Fantasie Impromptu, but listen to what he's doing at the return of the Presto (3:13).



Yes, that is interesting. I don't know if you realize it, but Chopin did not write this piece. Oh, he wrote something very CLOSE to it, but if you get hold of it and play it, it is strikingly different in many places. And this guy improvises the embellishments in the slow section just a bit, which I think is both interesting and stylistically right.

The part you are talking about is where he strikes LH thumb notes and then accents a few thumb or 2nd finger notes in the RH. That gives him kind of of a G# - E then F# A F# or something like that, a counter melody. That doesn't quite work for me, because the shape of the RH figures makes some striking dissonances here and there (partially from pedal, partially from speed), and that makes it a bit anachronistic, as if just for a moment we are thrown into a far later time, almost 20th century.

But interesting for sure!

It's always a pleasure to listen to performances like this one, because it shows the musician is thinking, exploring, and trying new things. smile


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#2148641 - 09/12/13 08:15 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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Gary, what are some of the striking differences between Katsaris' rendition and Chopin's original?


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#2148704 - 09/12/13 10:47 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
Gary, what are some of the striking differences between Katsaris' rendition and Chopin's original?

He just explained them in his post.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2148715 - 09/12/13 11:00 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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I thought Gary meant something other than the strongly voiced notes. And also something different from the embellishments, because he introduces those with "and."

Are the strongly voiced notes the same pitches as what Chopin wrote, or different?


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#2148727 - 09/12/13 11:29 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Gary D.]  
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Originally Posted by Gary D.

The part you are talking about is where he strikes LH thumb notes and then accents a few thumb or 2nd finger notes in the RH. That gives him kind of of a G# - E then F# A F# or something like that, a counter melody. That doesn't quite work for me, because the shape of the RH figures makes some striking dissonances here and there (partially from pedal, partially from speed), and that makes it a bit anachronistic, as if just for a moment we are thrown into a far later time, almost 20th century.

But interesting for sure!

It's always a pleasure to listen to performances like this one, because it shows the musician is thinking, exploring, and trying new things. smile

The part that I'm paying attention to here is the effect that is created, and then the sense of the music which this effect does not reflect, and also the period in which it was written.

For the section that PP highlighted the other day, I wrote of two three-note groups. I hear something like a figure echoed by another figure, and from figure to figure the mood is changing somewhat. It makes sense within the whole of the section and adds interest to the piece. So this is something that I would want to bring out, and one main reason is that it is within the context of what is happening in the music. There is a reason for it.

That would be part of interpretation, and how we make choices. Please bear in mind that I am very much still a student.

#2148730 - 09/12/13 11:33 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]  
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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
I thought Gary meant something other than the strongly voiced notes. And also something different from the embellishments, because he introduces those with "and."

Are the strongly voiced notes the same pitches as what Chopin wrote, or different?

They're the same pitches that he wrote, but he didn't write to bring them out like that. Destroying the composer's intention is almost as bad as changing notes in my opinion.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2148745 - 09/12/13 12:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Jul 2011
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dire tonic Offline
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dire tonic  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,001
uk south
What did you think of the Godowski arrangement of the Schubert?

#2148815 - 09/12/13 02:48 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]  
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keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
keystring  Offline
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Canada
Before I write anything, Polyphonist, since you highlighted the chromatic descent in that section, would that affect how you play that passage? If so, are there particular things you would do with it?

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