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Joined: Sep 2009
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That might be comparing apples to oranges.

Vintage D is one piano, size: 4 GB.

Ivory is several pianos. My older version 1.7 has four pianos in 59 GB. That's 15 GB each.

The newer Ivory v2 has three pianos in 77 GB, perhaps 26 GB each.

Still, there's a big difference between 4 GB Vintage and 15 GB old Ivory and 26 GB new Ivory.

Part of that might be the larger number of sample levels in the one product, fewer in the other. More sample levels may give some improved authenticity. But there's much more to quality than just the number of sample levels. That is, a bigger library need not necessarily impress you more than a smaller library.

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I thought that Vintage D, or Kontakt respectively, uses some clever compression to make the samples smaller.

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I think what this demonstrates is that the compression, length, and number of samples is not the limiting factor at this level. Vintage D is good because they sampled a good piano using good techniques and then made good engineering decisions after that (post-processing, kontakt scripting, etc.).

Ivory also did a good job with those things, but adds to that a larger number of layers, non-compressed samples, and whatever else they put in to make it so large. But those latter things do not make the critical difference because they are not the limiting factor.

Standards for software pianos are high, but not so high that the difference between compressed and uncompressed samples, for example, matters.

Last edited by gvfarns; 01/08/13 11:23 AM.
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Galaxy uses Kontakt's standard NCW lossless compression feature (available since K4) - so it is not limiting quality. Compression is slow, but decompression almost instant. I think Kontakt is buffering samples in compressed format, so it allows more sound loaded in the same RAM space. The real bottleneck beeing disk I/O, this schema arrangement allows for lower latency, at the cost of some higher CPU load, which is not critical with current HW.


Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs
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Originally Posted by Temperament
The real bottleneck beeing disk I/O, this schema arrangement allows for lower latency, at the cost of some higher CPU load, which is not critical with current HW.


If you mean lower latency for the performer at the keyboard, I don't think so. I agree that the bottleneck is the disk, but the main effect of the compression would be to increase the overall effective data rate that the disk can provide, which would increase the polyphony.

I've just done some Googling - yes it is maintained in compressed format in RAM, and yes, N.I consider the CPU overhead to be negligible. smile

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/08/13 01:20 PM.
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Well, Greg, I think polyphony (with voice killing options), latency (constant/jitter) are very interdependent things, which I wanted to investigate but had no time for this. You can translate better effective data rate to all or to some selected items of these - depending on the algorithm of Kontakt or the instrument using it. It is also crutial how the KScript program of the instrument is implemented. Momentarily I cannot say much specific about this without having worked in in more detail.

And I agree from Your previous post that different "buffers" or caches (ASIO audio driver, pre-load buffer in Kontakt) have different roles and effect of the different performance characteristics and should not get mixed up.

(One remark: Galaxy samples are of 48Kbit/24bit not 44.1/24. I get with my gear slightly but audibly better results by upsampling to 192000bit/s - at the cost of latency, but only on a weaker PC).

Last edited by Temperament; 01/08/13 02:14 PM. Reason: Re-reading previous posts
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Haven't solved the EWQLP problem, so I've reported it to East West.
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=44130 (only visible to customers)

About 10 simultaneous notes for EWQLP, and 76 notes for a very old version of Kontakt, on the same disk.

Greg.

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Originally Posted by Temperament
Galaxy samples are of 48Kbit/24bit not 44.1/24.


I thought 96/24

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Nope, 48. You can play it back in 96, which I assume means it is upsampling, but the samples are 48. I believe the same is true of Ivory, though I'm having a hard time finding the link now.

Last edited by gvfarns; 01/09/13 01:52 PM.
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As you can see, a lot of us on PW (including myself) make a hobby out of chasing a more realistic digital piano sound. I think that most of us would acknowledge that all digital/software pianos fall far short of an acoustic -- but it's still fun to try to get "just a little bit closer." If you have some money to spend and you enjoy fiddling around with electronics, software pianos make a great hobby. If you really have to get "the sound," start saving up for a concert grand.

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Originally Posted by gvfarns
You can play it back in 96, which I assume means it is upsampling, but the samples are 48.


How does that work? I mean, if samples are 48, how can you go higher than that,,hmm. Of course I'm not a tech-expert of any kind, but as I understand, with audio it's always the case that You can go FROM higher to lower, but can't go from lower to higher, if the orginal source is lower (at least that's the case, for instance, going from FLAC to mp3 not other way around).

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Originally Posted by EO3
Originally Posted by gvfarns
You can play it back in 96, which I assume means it is upsampling, but the samples are 48.


How does that work? I mean, if samples are 48, how can you go higher than that,,hmm. Of course I'm not a tech-expert of any kind, but as I understand, with audio it's always the case that You can go FROM higher to lower, but can't go from lower to higher, if the orginal source is lower (at least that's the case, for instance, going from FLAC to mp3 not other way around).

Upsampling

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Yes, theoretically, it could make a difference. The discrete, sampled audio has to be filtered to remove high frequency "aliases" of the real signal. By setting the sampling rate to 96kHz in the software, the software is performing SOME of this filtering, and is reducing the amount of filtering that the digital to analog converter (DAC) has to do (in the audio interface). The DAC is now being fed with a 96kHz digital audio stream, which is a higher resolution version of the original signal. (it doesn't contain any more information, though - i.e - if the highest frequency in the original is, say, a 14kHz piano overtone, then there will be no overtones any higher than this in the 96kHz version). The DAC still has to perform some filtering, but less than if it were being fed the 48kHz stream.

Now - it will only make a difference if the software does the filtering better than the DAC does. This might sound unlikely, but given the immense power of today's computers - I simply don't know.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/10/13 05:52 PM.
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Greg, I had the following experience very consequently, if I feed my EMU0404USB with a 192kb stream, the result is audibly better (with SH HD650 Headphones) than all of it below.

This experience made with VLC, Kontakt, foobar, even with higher MP3 with YouTube!

Perhaps with this resoultion are some DAC processing is turned automatically off.

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That's great. I believe you, and I'll believe you even more if you drop in next time your're in my neighbourhood and I can subject you to a double-blind test. ;^) (just being cheeky)

Note that there's actually a possibility that the fidelity is LESS when you do that, but you prefer the sound. I.e - the high frequency aliasing may actually make it sound better to you, even though it's technically worse. (this could be the case if the software is doing worse filtering than the DAC) For example, I have read that some people actually prefer MP3 recordings that have audible artifacts!!!

I agree that there is a possibility that the DAC turns off all processing at such a high sample rate - very interesting question!

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/10/13 07:06 PM.
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DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 5.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha, iRig Pro;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)
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Thanks Yuri - lovely!

Just btw, someone in the Pianoteq forum has created a Bosendorfer 290 preset for the Bluethner: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?pid=925079#p925079 (click the "More" button for info and the link to a demo recording) This is one of the best Pianoteq sounds I've heard in a while!

Greg.

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O, Greg, thanks!!!


DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 5.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha, iRig Pro;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)
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Thank You Greg for the PT Boesendorfer, for my needs (Bach piano) so far the best with Pianoteq! It is indeniably more Bösendorfer than Blüthner sound.

(But still lacking of the mighty sound of Galaxy Vienna Grand an the naturally deep sound Image with my recent arrangement with reverb and ReaSurround within Reaper.)


Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs
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