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#2008945 - 01/04/13 01:35 PM Digital Piano's and Realism  
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Verix Offline
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This might seem like a weird question, but when playing a digital piano through quality headphones, the sound is phenomenal.. but for me what's missing is how an actual piano feels. Has any manufacturer come up with something like vibration on the keys even when played using headphones?

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#2008947 - 01/04/13 01:43 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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Some AG's have TRS. I was not impressed with it however.

#2009326 - 01/05/13 09:09 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: spanishbuddha]  
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Verix Offline
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Some AG's have TRS. I was not impressed with it however.


The Tactile Response System (TRS) does seem interesting, I'd love to try it. Exactly what I was looking for, thank you.

#2009333 - 01/05/13 09:37 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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I'd be interested in trying it too, but I remain a bit skeptical. I think it has more to do with how the sound is produced in a digital vs. acoustic, and that is just not something they've been able to duplicate. I imagine it could be more distracting than helpful (akin to Roland's escapement feature which I don't like), but again I haven't tried it.


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#2009339 - 01/05/13 09:49 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Morodiene]  
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Kawai CA-95 has a soundboard and it also imitates the vibration of the keys (or maybe vibration is due to the sounboard, I don't really know. Kawai James to the rescue? grin ).

Regarding realism, while I loved how the CA-65 and CA-95 feels, as you ask for realism, while there isn't a damper releasing a string there's a part that will never be emulated, at least with the current technology. I mean, for instance, the sensation that fingers play faster with damper pedal pressed, among others.

But for what it matters, CA-95 is an excellent digital instrument in my opinion. Unfortunately I can't compare then with Yamaha's hybrids as I didn't try them yet.

#2009373 - 01/05/13 11:05 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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Semi serious post:

But why not hook it up to a MASSIVE speaker instead?

Akin to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3v7U9EvoOo

I mean in my youth I went night clubbing and they had massive speakers set to a thumping bass track and you could feel the sound waves hit the side of you facing the speaker.

That would have some awesome tactile response. You might want to invest in some cotton wool to stop the blood from your ears getting all over the keys though.

#2009387 - 01/05/13 11:51 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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I tried a DP with the tactile response (an Avant-Grand, I think) and didn't like it at all. It felt very artificial. I have an Celviano 620 with BX-5A monitors. When I'm using my headphones there is no vibration, of course, but when I have my monitors on I can feel some bass vibration which actually is similar to an acoustic piano. FWIW, the AG, in my opinion, was not worth the $17,000.00 they were asking for it. For that amount of money I was expecting to be amazed by the touch and sound, but I was not that impressed.


Lee
#2009464 - 01/05/13 02:32 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: CarloPiano]  
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Originally Posted by CarloPiano
Kawai CA-95 has a soundboard and it also imitates the vibration of the keys (or maybe vibration is due to the soundboard, I don't really know. Kawai James to the rescue? grin ).


I believe the CA-95 Soundboard speaker system is engineered so that the sound vibrations have an impact on the keys, which can be further tweaked and enhanced with the sound settings (I thought there was a special bassy preset which had massive vibrations), but I believe this doesn't work with headphones unlike the TRS.

#2009498 - 01/05/13 03:50 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: CarloPiano]  
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Originally Posted by CarloPiano
Regarding realism, while I loved how the CA-65 and CA-95 feels, as you ask for realism, while there isn't a damper releasing a string there's a part that will never be emulated, at least with the current technology. I mean, for instance, the sensation that fingers play faster with damper pedal pressed, among others.

But for what it matters, CA-95 is an excellent digital instrument in my opinion. Unfortunately I can't compare then with Yamaha's hybrids as I didn't try them yet.


Yeah, it would be nice if some digital would implement something like this. Actually the AvantGrand also does not have dampers in it, so pressing the pedal does not affect key weight or speed unfortunately. I actually think this is why some people find the action too heavy: it's set so that they keys are always as heavy as keys that have to lift dampers, but many times when we play we have the pedal down and are expecting something lighter.

The big advantage of the AvantGrand is that it actually has real letoff. In otherwords the downweight is heavier than the upweight. When you press the key is throws some weight, but when it returns it is only the weight of the key, and not the hammer, pushing back on you. I would love it if another manufacturer figured out how to emulate this, rather than giving us the click/jitter, which is what current letoff simulations do.

Last edited by gvfarns; 01/05/13 03:51 PM.
#2009572 - 01/05/13 06:21 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: gvfarns]  
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Originally Posted by gvfarns

The big advantage of the AvantGrand is that it actually has real letoff. In otherwords the downweight is heavier than the upweight. When you press the key is throws some weight, but when it returns it is only the weight of the key, and not the hammer, pushing back on you. I would love it if another manufacturer figured out how to emulate this, rather than giving us the click/jitter, which is what current letoff simulations do.


I don't think this is quite correct. The real reason the downweight is greater than the upweight is that when we push down on the key, we have to overcome both the weight of the hammer, and friction. When we release, the weight of the hammer (which IS still in contact with the key, btw) assists the return, so there is only the friction. We discussed this in another thread a long time ago - there was a reference given in that thread. Anyway, if what I'm saying is correct, there's no reason why the simplified hammer actions in typical DPs could not behave the same I don't think.

Of course I agree about the let-off - standard DPs don't have a real letoff. However, the period of time the hammer is not in contact with the key is very brief - it flicks up, bounces off the strings, and then comes back down to rest on the key again.
(putting it very simply, of course!)

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/05/13 06:23 PM.

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#2009584 - 01/05/13 06:44 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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I think this is the reference:
http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm

Quoting:
Quote

If there were no friction, upweight and downweight readings would be virtually the same. The difference in the readings is due to friction in the moving parts. When you depress the key, you have to overcome both friction and the weight of the moving parts in order to lift the hammer. When you release the key, friction is still there, offering resistance now against the keys return. Friction isnt particular: it works in both direction. The weight of the hammer, on the other hand, wants to go in one direction only: down, toward gravity. These unique qualities of friction and weight allow us to separate the two. The difference between the upweight and the downweight can be therefore be regarded as a representation of the amount of friction in the action.


(and I see now that my explanation in my previous reply still wasn't quite right!)

Greg.


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#2009586 - 01/05/13 06:51 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: sullivang]  
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Originally Posted by sullivang
......is only the friction. We discussed this in another thread a long time ago - there was a reference given in that thread. Anyway, if what I'm saying is correct, there's no reason why the simplified hammer actions in typical DPs could not behave the same I don't think.

Of course I agree about the let-off - standard DPs don't have a real letoff. However, the period of time the hammer is not in contact with the key is very brief - it flicks up, bounces off the strings, and then comes back down to rest on the key again.
(putting it very simply, of course!)

Greg.


Rolands and Kawais have simulated 'let-off' or 'escapement'. Yamaha for some odd reason don't have it except in the AGs, maybe to make a clear distinction between the AGs and the rest of their range. When playing slowly and very softly, I personally find the 'let-off' feel very valuable in controlling my tone and dynamics.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2009602 - 01/05/13 07:15 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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Yes, that's why I said "real" escapement.

The AG's, of course, don't have simulated escapement, because they use a real grand action. They DO have real escapement. ;^)
I.e - the "let-off feel" in an A.G is due to a real jack hitting a real let-off button! (and there is a real hammer that really does "escape" from the key, in a way that does not occur in any standard DP that I'm aware of - not even the Kawai wooden actions)

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/05/13 07:21 PM.

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#2009721 - 01/05/13 10:16 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: sullivang]  
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I don't think this is quite correct. The real reason the downweight is greater than the upweight is that when we push down on the key, we have to overcome both the weight of the hammer, and friction. When we release, the weight of the hammer (which IS still in contact with the key, btw) assists the return, so there is only the friction.


Dang, I hate being wrong about this stuff.

A nearby piano shop went out of business and I wanted to buy their action demo but I never followed up with it. Too bad.

Edit: removed a bunch I wrote because I didn't read your post carefully enough.

Last edited by gvfarns; 01/05/13 10:42 PM.
#2009736 - 01/05/13 11:09 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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Kawai CA-95 has a soundboard and it also imitates the vibration of the keys [Linked Image][Linked Image]


Wallace Thompson
#2009744 - 01/05/13 11:18 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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In another forum a poster once stated that playing the CP300 with its massive built in speakers produced a subtle amount of vibration into the key bed when played at volume. That amounted to a desirable sensation while playing. I've never played a CP300 myself so just noting an opinion that was once stated.

#2009756 - 01/05/13 11:41 PM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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AnotherScott has referenced such benefits of keeping the built-in speakers on when playing live gigs through PA systems several times.


#2009840 - 01/06/13 06:34 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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Yep - my PX-330 has that effect with the speakers too - it's not bad.

Greg.


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#2010412 - 01/07/13 06:34 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: sullivang]  
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Hello,

I noticed that my Yamaha NU1 creates some vibrations in the chassis and keys as well which makes bass chords feel quite natural, without having an active vibration simulation like the N3. Therefore, when you play through headphones or at lover volumes, it feels like something is missing. But at higher volumes, it feels very much like an acoustic instrument (it´s less Vibration than on a grand, though). I have not tried the Kawai CA-95, but I assume it is similar. I have noticed it on the CS-9.

Regarding upweigth vs. downweigt: With all simulated DP actions it feels to me like the keys are pushed back into place fast. It feels almost like playing on springs. The Yamaha hybrids feel much different. Keys are pushed back slower and in a more fluent way. Hybrids and acoustics feel like you have to move a complex mechanism while DP simulations feel like you have to overcome some low friction without any lags.

Best
D

#2010437 - 01/07/13 07:51 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: Verix]  
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I wonder if those saying the TRS on the AG N2 and N3 is feels artificial played it at volumes that are unrealistically low. When played at similar volumes to an acoustic I would really challenge anyone to say it felt anything other than right. TRS turned up (there are three levels and off) on a piano played at low to medium volumes would certainly feel odd though.

#2010441 - 01/07/13 07:58 AM Re: Digital Piano's and Realism [Re: EssBrace]  
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I tried an AG N2 at maximum volume with TRS turned on and it did not feel artificial to me. I compared it directly to the Grand piano which stood beside it. I was in fact puzzled about how real it felt. It fits nicely with the resonant sound of low notes.


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