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before you get to the pivot. DP`s have always seemed to have a hinge too darned close to where your fingers get. Not many are that different; any suggestions as to those less expensive ones which are? (under £2k)

I think CA-65 is the one with the longest keys.

Avantgrands are even longer, but they are well over 2k.

Carlos

Yes, the 'Grand Feel' keyboard action found in the new CA95/CA65 models features the longest keys and longest pivot of any digital piano (however the Avant Grand may have longer keys) - the pivot length is actually the same as a Kawai grand piano action.

Kind regards,
James
x

James: While we are on the subject, do you know which Kawai grand has the same key length as the GF keys? I'm just remembering how everyone (including many salespeople) thought the AvantGrand keys were the same length as those of a CFX but they are really the same length as the keys in a C3. By no means trying to be hostile...just interested to know.

By the way it's not clear to me that AvantGrand's keys are longer than the GF. The revelant measurement is from the front of the playing surface to the fulcrum. The AvantGrand has significantly more stuff on the other side of the fulcrum but this doesn't matter (afaik). I'm actually interested in the actual measurements of these two.

Just for the information of anyone who may be reading, the reason key length matters is that it determines the relative leverage you get when pushing at the front of the key verses the back. If the key is short, it gets relatively difficult to play near the back of the keys. Kawai's recent innovations (the ones we can see, anyway) in their wood actions have had to do with key length. From AWA PRO II to RM3 they set the fulcrums back on the black keys, as they are in an acoustic, so their leverage would change the same way as the white keys. From RM3 to GF they have expanded the length of the keys.

With most other digital piano actions, there's a hinge and then the hammer portion of the key is underneath the playing surface. The hinges all line up in a row (that's bad) and typically are not that far away from the front of the key (also bad).

To be fair I didn't notice this issue until someone here brought it up. Most of the time you just get used to the way your piano plays.

Any time you fixate on a single engineering spec, you run a real risk of being misled. Just like in gvfarns' example about the Avantgrand keys and the Avantgrand salesman, I could tell you endless stories about how specs are misused to sell acoustic pianos. I've even seen console pianos with spacers to make them studio height and satisfy school bid specs. The manufacturer drilled holes in the spacers to let out "tone".

As a spec, it is clearly part of Kawai's nice action design, but as a lone method of comparison, it's about as useful as the 87.21% of statistics that are made up on the spot.

Not long ago, we did some action work on an older Bosendorfer concert grand. The distance to the pivot point was very long but that actually created significant drawbacks to the design when replacing the hammers with newer Bosendorfer hammers that are in fact denser. To achieve balance, weights had been added to the keys to get correct touch weight, but this created too much inertia. We were the second shop to correct this action. Our redesign allowed us to remove over 20 lbs of added weights. Point being, it's not the lengths so much as what is at each end that determines if the feel is pleasant, efficient and responsive.

The customer is now happier than ever with the action. Just like in your search, it's the whole design that counts.

Nice post.

Very good recapitulation of keyboard design - all is true. A little addition though: a keyboard engineer has the possibility to compensate for black keys shorter levers by attaching lighter hammer weights to the black keys. On acoustics You have the roughly same hammer weight and geometry (at least at the neighbouring keys) so there is the geometrical compensation (fulcrum displacement) the only measure at disposal - and is applied also in every weighted hammer action keyboard without offsetting.

While geometrical compensation is - as I think - slightly better, than weighting adjustment, to name it an "innovation" after having this on 350 Ys. old clavichords sounds somewhat exaggerating. Longer keys are better to a certain extent - they can mean more inertia, as correctly pointed out by PianoWorksATL.

Heavier weights near the axis are very efficient aid for balancing keyblocks without the need of springs.

The issue with short keys is the great force it takes to play the part of the key nearest to the fallboard. If the axis of rotation is very close to the fallboard, that part of the key becomes nearly unusable.

For example, try to play an F#dim6 chord with your left hand on such a keyboard. Your 1 and 5 fingers are on sharps, forcing your whole hand closer to the fallboard. You can do it by scrunching your 3 and 2 fingers under, but it's more comfortable to do on a keyboard that has more vertical travel right up next to the fallboard.

(Well, OK, digitals don't have fallboards. But I think that the term clarifies the geography here.... ;-) )

Exactly, as gvfarns also pointed out, the difference between front and back of the keys can be compensated geometrically by applying longer keys.

Some experimental constructions exist, where even the pressure point of the finger could be captured (another extension for example to modify pitch other than aftertouch.)

In the same manner you could conceive perhaps a construct, where the keys are not rotated around a single turning point, but are lifting completely maintaining a horizontal orientation, but not a historically supported concept. Perhaps somthing for future DP marketing... Why not if a gain for playability?

In the same manner you could conceive perhaps a construct, where the keys are not rotated around a single turning point, but are lifting completely maintaining a horizontal orientation,

Spring is on it`s way . ..

@gvfarns,

Just did pose this question to Kawai, and, the answer is:

"The CA95’s GF Action’s front pivot length is compared to our RX grand piano’s pivot length in the graphic. In other words, the pivot length is the same between the GF and RX actions."

Thanks for looking that up. Though the question of which RX is still up. Is it the RX2? RX7? They have quite different key lengths.

I compared this situation to that of the AvantGrands because Yamaha was purposely vague about which model was used as well, which made a lot of people think it was the length of a 9-foot concert grand action, but it's not. Since Kawai calls it the length of an RX, it's clearly not the length of the concert grand EX. So that means its somewhere between the length of the RX1 baby grand and the RX7 semi-concert, inclusive.

Since previous actions were shorter than any of these, it seems likely they would have gone with the shortest option. That's not to badmouth it in any respect, but it would give us clarity.

the pivot length is actually the same as a Kawai grand piano action.

@Kawai James,

Specifically, which model of Kawai "RX" grand matches the pivot length for the "Grand Feel" action, in the graphic?

Point taken, but this is key end to pivot in a DP, not an AP. Totally different animal.

Not badmouthing James, but from past experience of asking such questions, I have to assume he's contractually prohibited from responding to specification requests like this. But if he's saying it's shorter than an AG action that isn't very encouraging because the AG is based on a short-ish grand action.


I don't understand the aversion to springs in AP or DP keys. They are the best answer to anyone who wants a lightweight (portable) realistic DP action, and they could help plenty of APs have quicker return time without the inertial sluggishness and possible injury that counterweights bring.

@dewster,

Have asked all of the above questions about features in the Kawai CA95 that just don't correspond with the Kawai "EX" concert piano, although Kawai insists that these digital features are very acoustic-like.

At minimum, there are four features (listed above) that don't match up with an acoustic.

My apologies for the confusion - I've just revised my initial post.

I intended to write that the 'Grand Feel' action has the longest keys and longest pivot of any standard digital piano.

The Avant Grand is a slightly different case as this is a hybrid piano. I expect the Avant Grand's keys are a little longer than that of the Kawai 'Grand Feel' action, however I do not have any measurements so cannot say for certain. Similarly, I do not know the pivot length of the Avant Grand action.

I hope this clarifies any confusion related to my initial post.

Kind regards,
James
x

@gvfarns,

Yes, it seems a little odd to me that there have been a number of details that Kawai mentions about their digitals being just like a real "acoustic" although the features and specs don't match up, in reality.

1) "Grand Feel" action pivot length = "RX" grand (which one?) - however, it does not match the "EX" grand, instead.

2) No after-pedal sustain can be achieved when striking a key and depressing the sustain pedal, then releasing the key while holding it with pedal, then silently depress key again to hear its sound, by releasing the pedal. This is a damper effect that does not work.

3) No playing off of the jack (or, "let-off") is possible, as it is with a grand.

4) Pedal depth measurements are not like a grand, also.

And, are there any other features and specs in the Kawai digitals that don't behave or match up, compared to a Kawai "EX" concert piano?

Price?

Very funny, James...

However, you are absolutely on the mark with that comment since the Kawai digitals are still really a great value for the money.*

Especially for those who can't afford the real thing.

Even so, I do enjoy the CA95 for what it can do.

*OT:

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And, the original website I took this list from:

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