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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2007565
01/01/13 04:38 PM
01/01/13 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by carey


It is unclear (based on the way the original post is written) as to exactly WHEN the teacher made the comment....before or after the competition. In either instance it would have been inappropriate to share the comment.


This judge did not comment on this particular student, but commenting on general participants. They often wanted to laugh when they listened to the participants way of playing. By the way, I had a lesson with my teacher last Saturday. I confirmed with him what the judge said. He did confirmed what I stated earlier.


So it would appear the judge made the comment to your teacher AFTER the competition - and that the comment had nothing to do with the teacher's decision to not have his student perform the Nocturne.

My point is that your teacher should not have shared this comment with you or any of his other students. smile



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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: Carey] #2007608
01/01/13 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by carey

My point is that your teacher should not have shared this comment with you or any of his other students. smile

I agree. And the reason is that picturing your audience or a judge with a particular attitude which is humiliating or denigrating to the performer can affect the performer, especially if he is still a student getting used to it. It is not an image to share, and there is no reason for doing so.

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: Carey] #2007609
01/01/13 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by carey


It is unclear (based on the way the original post is written) as to exactly WHEN the teacher made the comment....before or after the competition. In either instance it would have been inappropriate to share the comment.


This judge did not comment on this particular student, but commenting on general participants. They often wanted to laugh when they listened to the participants way of playing. By the way, I had a lesson with my teacher last Saturday. I confirmed with him what the judge said. He did confirmed what I stated earlier.


So it would appear the judge made the comment to your teacher AFTER the competition - and that the comment had nothing to do with the teacher's decision to not have his student perform the Nocturne.

My point is that your teacher should not have shared this comment with you or any of his other students. smile



Yes, the judge made the comment after the competition.
I do not know what ignited the conversation.

My thought is that it is painful to hear what the judges really think, but I'd rather know the real standard so that I know how to plan my next competition that I will enter.

Before this incident, I had heard people saying that if we play difficult pieces but we cannot execute well, the judges consider that we cannot play that piece. But what this judge said to my teacher and the teacher told my friend who is planning to enter adult piano competitions really affirms what I had heard. Not pleasant, but I think useful if we view in certain way.


Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: keystring] #2007611
01/01/13 06:24 PM
01/01/13 06:24 PM
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RonaldSteinway Offline OP
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by carey

My point is that your teacher should not have shared this comment with you or any of his other students. smile

I agree. And the reason is that picturing your audience or a judge with a particular attitude which is humiliating or denigrating to the performer can affect the performer, especially if he is still a student getting used to it. It is not an image to share, and there is no reason for doing so.


To me the live streaming thing is much scarier than people in the audiences.

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2007623
01/01/13 06:57 PM
01/01/13 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Before this incident, I had heard people saying that if we play difficult pieces but we cannot execute well, the judges consider that we cannot play that piece.
I think that virtually goes without saying.

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: pianoloverus] #2007644
01/01/13 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Before this incident, I had heard people saying that if we play difficult pieces but we cannot execute well, the judges consider that we cannot play that piece.
I think that virtually goes without saying.


It depends on the individual's standard. Playing well is relative. My friend who often entered amateur competitions has such a high standard so that he is rarely impressed by most of the amateur people. Yet, some other people can be impressed by adults who play pieces often by professionals. Now I know that judges in this amateur level expect people to play at professional level too. That is why unprofessional playing really annoys them.

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2007690
01/01/13 09:26 PM
01/01/13 09:26 PM
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Ronald...Surely judges do not expect "professional level" playing at an Amateur Competition (though some competitors reach that level). What they expect is a well prepared program at the level of the competitor. That level depends totally upon what the Amateur is capable of under pressure.

Last edited by musica71; 01/01/13 09:27 PM. Reason: Wrong spelling.

Musica 71
Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: musica71] #2007705
01/01/13 10:12 PM
01/01/13 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by musica71
Ronald...Surely judges do not expect "professional level" playing at an Amateur Competition (though some competitors reach that level). What they expect is a well prepared program at the level of the competitor. That level depends totally upon what the Amateur is capable of under pressure.

Well said !!!! thumb



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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: musica71] #2007774
01/02/13 01:19 AM
01/02/13 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by musica71
Ronald...Surely judges do not expect "professional level" playing at an Amateur Competition (though some competitors reach that level). What they expect is a well prepared program at the level of the competitor. That level depends totally upon what the Amateur is capable of under pressure.

Well said is dam right!! thumb

Quote
Edit Reason: Wrong spelling

We don't expect correct spelling. grin

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2007775
01/02/13 01:22 AM
01/02/13 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Before this incident, I had heard people saying that if we play difficult pieces but we cannot execute well, the judges consider that we cannot play that piece.
I think that virtually goes without saying.


It depends on the individual's standard. Playing well is relative. My friend who often entered amateur competitions has such a high standard so that he is rarely impressed by most of the amateur people. Yet, some other people can be impressed by adults who play pieces often by professionals. Now I know that judges in this amateur level expect people to play at professional level too. That is why unprofessional playing really annoys them.

If these judges are well-versed in said competitions, they should know what to expect, and should not be annoyed. If they are brand new, they should be coached on etiquette while being a judge, and on what to expect for the duration of their amateur judging careers.

If they find they cannot deal with the caliber of pianist with which they are being presented, perhaps they should upgrade themselves to professional competitions only. Once they get there, they still should be coached on etiquette while being a judge.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: musica71] #2007842
01/02/13 08:21 AM
01/02/13 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by musica71
Ronald...Surely judges do not expect "professional level" playing at an Amateur Competition (though some competitors reach that level). What they expect is a well prepared program at the level of the competitor. That level depends totally upon what the Amateur is capable of under pressure.


Yes, they do not expect, but their standard is still at professional level. They are delighted by those who can play at the professional qualities. That is why most of finalists in big competitions have strong piano background. Either they went to prestigious conservatories, or they were prodigies. People who cannot play at professional quality seldom advance to final.

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: musica71] #2007867
01/02/13 09:21 AM
01/02/13 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by musica71
Ronald...Surely judges do not expect "professional level" playing at an Amateur Competition (though some competitors reach that level). What they expect is a well prepared program at the level of the competitor. That level depends totally upon what the Amateur is capable of under pressure.
This is exactly the point.

All the teacher was trying to tell his student was not to attempt a piece beyond his abilities (which apparently the Chopin Nocturne was). This is exactly what the teacher should be doing, and it was very silly for the student to be upset that he had been already working on it for two weeks. He can always play it for his own pleasure or some place other than the competition.

I have watched some of the bigger amateur competitions that have been posted on YouTube or broadcast live. I think a fair number of the competitors attempt works demanding the highest level of professional virtuosity and end up obviously struggling(and sometimes failing) to pull the piece off without many wrong notes, slowing down during the most difficult passages, etc. If they'd just play something at an advanced but somewhat less difficult level they'd have more of a chance of showing their musical abilities which sometimes get completely lost in their obvious struggle to just play the notes.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/02/13 05:42 PM.
Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: RonaldSteinway] #2007870
01/02/13 09:29 AM
01/02/13 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted by musica71
Ronald...Surely judges do not expect "professional level" playing at an Amateur Competition (though some competitors reach that level). What they expect is a well prepared program at the level of the competitor. That level depends totally upon what the Amateur is capable of under pressure.


Yes, they do not expect, but their standard is still at professional level. They are delighted by those who can play at the professional qualities. That is why most of finalists in big competitions have strong piano background. Either they went to prestigious conservatories, or they were prodigies. People who cannot play at professional quality seldom advance to final.


Well, that's the way the world works.

And besides, playing the piano is not about "winning" - IMHO its about the sheer joy, satisfaction and pleasure that comes from being able to play beautiful music to the best of one's ability - whatever that might be.


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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: Carey] #2008077
01/02/13 04:30 PM
01/02/13 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by carey
And besides, playing the piano is not about "winning" - IMHO its about the sheer joy, satisfaction and pleasure that comes from being able to play beautiful music to the best of one's ability - whatever that might be.
Worth repeating. thumb


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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: currawong] #2008112
01/02/13 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted by carey
And besides, playing the piano is not about "winning" - IMHO its about the sheer joy, satisfaction and pleasure that comes from being able to play beautiful music to the best of one's ability - whatever that might be.
Worth repeating. thumb


Again. grin


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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2008178
01/02/13 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted by carey
And besides, playing the piano is not about "winning" - IMHO its about the sheer joy, satisfaction and pleasure that comes from being able to play beautiful music to the best of one's ability - whatever that might be.
Worth repeating. thumb


Again. grin


And again. smile



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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: ChopinAddict] #2008201
01/02/13 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted by carey
And besides, playing the piano is not about "winning" - IMHO its about the sheer joy, satisfaction and pleasure that comes from being able to play beautiful music to the best of one's ability - whatever that might be.
Worth repeating. thumb


Again. grin


And again. smile
I don't think think it's that simple. That's part of it, but many people have big egos, and certainly at the professional level there are major monetary considerations involved in the result of a competition.

If winning is of no importance, why not just let each competitor perform and give no prizes? Why have there been lengthy discussions at PW by amateur competitors about every tiny detail involved in participating in a competition?

Even in a recital a professional must win the approval of the audience and/or critics to be successful. And amateurs also want to win the approval of their audience.

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: pianoloverus] #2008211
01/02/13 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by currawong
Originally Posted by carey
...its about the sheer joy, satisfaction and pleasure that comes from being able to play beautiful music to the best of one's ability...
Worth repeating.thumb
Again. grin
And again. smile

+1

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think think it's that simple.

+1 grin

As is often the case, everybody is 100% right, including the opposite views. smile

Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: Mark_C] #2008215
01/02/13 09:17 PM
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A favorite quotation from John Stuart Mill: "In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny."

(not sure this is exactly an "intellectual debate," but still... smile )


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Re: one opinion of an amateur piano judge [Re: pianoloverus] #2008224
01/02/13 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
[I don't think think it's that simple. That's part of it, but many people have big egos, and certainly at the professional level there are major monetary considerations involved in the result of a competition.
carey said playing the piano is not about winning. He was speaking about more than competitions. Of course big things sometimes hang on the results of competitions. But I would still say "playing the piano is not about winning".


Du holde Kunst...
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