Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Is the Handicap of Starting an Instrument Late Real?

More on this old topic from the author of "Guitar Zero":

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/01/new-skills-for-a-new-year.html?mbid=nl_Daily%20(152)

I'm down with his approach of keeping one's expectations low and one's persistence high!

Well I think it is real in the sense that (like the owls) we are slower to learn new tricks. However, unlike (some) youngsters, we're pretty much doing it because we WANT to do it, and we're dedicated. That has got to create some balancing out, don't you think?

As for keeping expectations "low"..... I don't know if I agree with "low". Of course I don't think that a significant number of us are going to become world famous (ok, maybe "Piano World " famous ) --- but look at some of the "older" folks here who have done remarkably well - Jazzwee comes to mind first.

There are others who didn't play as children, and are doing amazingly well - but they are still pretty young (all things being relative )

I feel we have to learn about what "realistic" expectations can be, rather than setting "low" expectations. Don't expect "low" results - but work at getting an understanding of what is realistic. Also, keep in mind what is realistic now will be different than what is realistic next year!

I have no idea where I'm going to end up - but I'm already farther ahead in some ways than I expected to be -- in others not as far along as I'd hoped.

It is very true, I think, that the "small bites" concept is as valid for us as for the owls, and that persistence is what will get us through the tough spots!

Agree. Realistic expectations for the adult starter are key. However, it may take some time/exposure to the piano to be able to make realistic expectations. Reading widely of people's experiences here at PW can be one input into this.

Starting late (what is late--30? 45? 60?) is starting late, especially if you are a true beginner (no lessons as a child). You have to put the time in, and unfortunately there is just less of it left to you.

On the other hand, starting late means you have given it serious thought and maybe even shelled out serious bucks, so you work at it with determination, persistence, and patience. In the end, you'll be thinking less about comparison to others (how we measure 'handicap') than the personal pleasure and sense of accomplishment you get from playing.

When you are a young child, parents are able to keep you focused by removing things that could get in your way. As an adult, you have responsibilities that will disrupt your time you have allocated to practicing. Time is a criical element.

When you think of when you get up in the morning, go to school, or go to work and what time you have to pracice when you get home after dinner and then go to bed to sleep, it is 2 or 3 hours and that is all in a perfect day. Not a lot of time.
It is not a negative but it is a reality. Age is not a factor for anyone of any age. If you had a bad back, bad arm, bad hand, bad head or anything bad to do with the body, of course, it could slow you down from any activity in life including playing the piano. It seems that most people who have studied piano did so for 10 years, and it seems like a reasonable time, so adding 10 years of commitment is practical. Most twenty year olds are studing and dating or devoping a career and have an active life so it could be tough to find the time to practice, 30 and married can also be a busy time, too. It is very individual. So I repeat it is never age, but time.

The younger you are, you think you have a lot of time because if you are 20, 100 is a long time way. So the older you are, the more focused you are because 30, and 40 are young, but are 10 years from being half way to 100. That alone can make anyone very focused to accomplish things they want to do in their lifetme.

Boldface added by me

Exactly. I think that's one of the hardest things about being an adult beginner - whether you're starting from a true zero-music background or just new to the piano. There is a phase (long for some, shorter for others) where we struggle to figure out what we can reasonably expect.

I think that is one of the big reasons we talk so much about the journey rather than the destination --- we don't know what the destination is-- (or if we will get there!!)

I prefer to play the "go with the flow and work hard" idea and gradually start to set some goals - rather than set low expectations to start off with!

I'm a bit annoyed. I taught myself piano for a year about 5 years ago (when I was 23), and I'm trying to get back into it now and feel twinges and pains when I never used to before. Getting old?! I have to slow my progress to whatever my body can take even though my mind is racing...

I do not know if I agree with the "keep expectations low" concept. I very much believe that you go where you look. If you do not think you are capable of much, then you are not. I am not saying that one should have unrealistic expectations, but I believe in aiming high and achieving the most that you can. I do not ever expect to rival a professional, but I want to push myself to be the best piano player I can be.

The key thing in what he says, to me, is the lesson of the adult owls: breaking learning new tasks down into small pieces.

SwissMS, I am with you on aiming high. The adult owls suggest to me a way to achieve my high expectations.

Is playing the piano a competition?

An adult beginner might be "handicapped" if compared to a 9-year-old beginner. But the adult beginner has a huge leg up on an adult who decides playing the piano will take too long so he never even starts learning...

This is truth(well, for me anyhow). Well put!

Casinitaly -- thanks for the honorable mention.

Finally! New studies to correct the "Age Plasticity" issue!

I think anyone tracking my progress can see that I'm progressing no slower than any adolescent when it comes to playing piano. My time on the piano is equivalent to a 16 year old (starting at 8). I'm certain I can outplay most 16 year olds. I'm still improving at the same rate every year and I see nothing that prevents me from reaching a professional level of playing jazz. Certainly it will happen before I get to the equivalent of being a 21 year old (5 years from now). This is another way of looking at it outside of the typical 10,000 hour rule.

The secret to my success is nothing more than (a) deep, deep interest, (b) intelligent practice (with a teacher) (c) and persistence.

So to all you older guys and gals: YOU CAN DO IT!

Aim for the moon. If you miss, you may hit a star. (W. Clement Stone)

Regards,
Kurt.-

jazzwee,



I tend to think of it this way too. Whenever an acquaintance asks me how it is going with the piano I say something like, "great, I'm about an 8 or 9-year-old now." They usually laugh and think I'm kidding, but I'm not.

When I was a little boy my Dad used to tell me "don't worry, life begins at 10" whenever I was frustrated at something I couldn't do. Of course, he kept moving the bar as I got older. Eventually I got the message....just keep trying, there is always another "something" you wish you could do.

JimF,

On an interesting side note, I actually have two sons who started an instrument at the same time as I have. Both are in bands now and play Metal (Guitar). They are both quite good though not yet at a professional level. One shifted to Guitar from piano a couple of years ago and he caught up extremely fast technically.

In general, I'm more skilled than my kids (now 18 and 16) but I can attribute that directly to hours of practice. Definitely they are musically inclined and the only issue was hours. They also had teachers like me. They are not the gifted kids that learn everything by the time they are 10. But they show the skill level needed to be a professional musician if they continue their dedication.

I think it is interesting to see how we all grew in music because we're in the same household, connected genetically, and I have personal knowledge of their practice time (believe me -- you can HEAR when they are practicing DEATH METAL).

The older one is in College and has taken Music Theory, intending to get a minor in music.

So this is not a scientific experiment but it's interesting to do a daily comparison with your own children. It could have demoralized me but it didn't end up like that.

I'm going to adopt your way of thinking. I'm at age 7 if they started at 6.. LOL

I honestly think the whole old dog can't learn new tricks is just garbage. Learning is a lifelong everyday fact of life. We learn everyday, something new.

Mind you learning in little chunks sure does help as I grow older!

I have high expectations but they are different to what I might have had if I really learnt to play when young. Young peoples' expectations are often about career, fame and money. I already have a career, so I do not need another one and there's no way I could become famous or get income from playing classical music starting at my age when all those really good pianists can't do it either. It might be possible if I was into something else like jazz or pop.

But my expectation are extremely high in another sense. Not necessarily to learn to play everything I want to play in high level, but to learn to play at least something in a way that will please me, which would mean quite close to perfection. My goals are more about the quality of playing and constantly getting better than about the amount or flashiness of pieces I learn to play. And from what I see, my age does not affect the quality of my playing that much, since the things I struggle with today are quite the same I did when I was very young. I just have a better teacher and more determination now, so I might be able to solve these issues with time and patience.

My goal is simply to make musical sounds that please and thrill me. As often as possible and with as much variety of different tunes as possible.

I never could meet that goal in any sustained fashion on other instruments (fiddle, guitar, mandolin) but it seems a very achievable goal on piano. No doubt because those 7-8 years of lessons starting in second grade put some basic technique into my wiring, sitting dormant for decades while I played around with lesser instruments!

I find this very interesting. When I started taking lessons (3 months ago) I used to think about comparissons against kids: lower goals, less plasticity, worse muscle memory and all that stuff. I just don´t want to get frustrated, I prefer to enjoy the trip...but it`s not real, at least not completely.
I want to play well (well enough to sound close to the music I love :))some day, and this is my reason for working hard, as hard as I can.
I think that I (and most of us) have a baggage that no kid has. I've been 40 years listening to music every day (not just hearing it), music of all kinds played by the best musicians. I can sing or whistle in time thousands of songs, from Tom Waits to Paco de Lucía, from Michael Brecker to Mozart, like any other meloman (iac).I feel notes, rythms and chords way before I understand their harmonic function or the notes that form them.
And I'm convinced it has to be some kind of advantage, or at least some compensation.
And yes, I have to repeat somo things once and again, but like others said it could be more a matter of intelligent pratice. Work hard, but smart too.

No one should underestimate the effect of sustained adult discipline. Rome wasn't built by kids.

Agreed. But, please, let's think about something that don't take us seven hundred years to achieve, like Rome.