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There is, however, the added support and security of having the score on the music stand.
I think that too many feel that someone who is playing the music with the score on the music stand does not know the music as well as s/he should. Some seem to think that the score on the stand means that the performer is reading from the score throughout the performance. For many of us this is simply not the case. I agree, even after I memorize a song well I still have the music before me (playing for an audience) for my Linus blanket but only look at it if I have a brain freeze fumbling around for a grip. Been there and it's so frustrating and embarrassing  , Still much the non-confident beginner.
Ragdoll At first, she only flew when she thought no one was watching. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/moyd14/MOYD_34.gif)
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I attended a concert last year, where a popular modern day composer and pianist played his own compositions. I was surprised to see him using the score for a couple of the pieces.
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I just wonder people in this forum, how many percent is muscle memory.
For me, I remember the flow of the music, but I have to say 90% is muscle memory.
I keep practicing until I SUDDENLY can play without music. I have never really tried to remember.
I think it is not wise, but now I never need to play by heart like when I was teenager.
Love to hear from others....
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Aren't many recordings made using the score, and the listener is none the wiser?
There is a story about John Rubinstein turning pages for his father's Chopin Mazurkas recording (and screwing up).
I seem to remember a documentary where Horowitz used the score for a recording of Mozart K. 488.
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Study of form, structure, harmony is supposed to help, but I would agree that for most people it is more muscle memory than they would care to admit.
But, there are people who can write out every note of a Bach prelude and fugue that they are playing, for example, such is their knowledge of the score.
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Instead of writing the notes out, sometimes I play a piece so dreadfully slow that I have time to say the name of the note/chord that comes next out loud before I actually play it. It helps to avoid memory slips.
Donald Lee III
BM '16 James Madison University
MM '18 Cincinnati Conservatory of Music
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Until I bought my own piano two years ago, I only had about ten minutes' worth of music stored in my memory. But I found it so much more enjoyable to be able to play music without recourse to the score that I've been adding bit by it to my memorized repertoire ever since. It just feels great to be able to play any one of several pieces (rather than half-remembered bits of classics interspersed with rubbishy linking improvisations....) whenever I happen to come across a piano, anywhere, anytime.
I'd say that 95% of my playing from memory is down to muscle memory; the rest is remembering where the modulations are (and into which key) and the basic harmonic structure, but that's sufficient to get me out of pickles (coupled with improvisations) if my muscle memory fails. But still, there is a lot, lot more music that I've learnt to play, but with the music in front of me.......
If music be the food of love, play on!
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I believe it is just a choice to make. If one can memorize the scores, it can add a sense of drama and the illusion of conflict. This can be exciting to the audience.
Though the flip side, who says you always need conflict? Where's the drama and conflict? When one hears a professional recital one usually is not expecting a memory slip. Nor is it considered a monumental task unless it is something like Schiff playing both books of the WTC from memory. Even if one was I don't see how this would any drama and conflict. If a pianist, amateur or pro, gets lost with a memory problem, it just creates an uncomfortable situation for the audience and an even more uncomfortable situation for the performer. I am going to have to disagree, in a lot of ways, it is like walking a tight rope. As an audience member, we know that more then likely nothing bad is going to happen, but it might, and that is exciting. It is a little bit of Schadenfreude, also it is a bit of wanting to see the artist conquer the physical aspects of playing. I am not trying to say that is what people always want to see, but it is part of it. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks this way although, obviously, at least one person does. I have gone to hundreds of concerts and never gave this one second thought, and it seems a quite bizarre of thinking a concert experience even if it's only a tiny thought in the back of one's mind. Kind of like going to play and thinking about whether the actors will remember their lines. A parent going to their child's performance might be nervous or anxious about their child's memory failing but calling this a sense or drama or illusion of conflict seems like a wrong choice of words. Same thing with calling this exciting.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/01/13 06:31 PM.
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When I saw Stephen Hough last year, he played his own Sonata (broken branches) with his score (though he didn't for his Liszt, Scriabin and Beethoven).
Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus
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When I saw Stephen Hough last year, he played his own Sonata (broken branches) with his score (though he didn't for his Liszt, Scriabin and Beethoven). He said in an interview he wanted to show the audience that he was playing a properly composed piece of music, not an improvisation. It is probably a general expectation that pianists play contemporary music (or atonal music apart from Berg's Sonata, though I saw Hélène Grimaud play it from the music too....) from the score. Even Pollini plays Stockhausen and Nono (though not Schoenberg or Webern) with the music in front of him.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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Here's a problem that maybe only an amateur would have. Am I the only person who can make an error from memory lapse even when performing with the score? I forgot to look at it and almost got myself into a repeating loop, thinking that I knew where the piece was going. I tend to have things mostly in memory but can fall between the two stools.
Anyway, I agree with the article that the musical (audible) result is what counts. I think playing from memory has become something of a fetish in musical training. One can see it not only in the high-powered conservatories, but even at modest levels. My daughter had just a couple of years of piano lessons, but her teacher insisted on memorization--very much at the expense of sightreading skills, I think.
1989 Baldwin R
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I believe it is just a choice to make. If one can memorize the scores, it can add a sense of drama and the illusion of conflict. This can be exciting to the audience.
Though the flip side, who says you always need conflict? Where's the drama and conflict? When one hears a professional recital one usually is not expecting a memory slip. Nor is it considered a monumental task unless it is something like Schiff playing both books of the WTC from memory. Even if one was I don't see how this would any drama and conflict. If a pianist, amateur or pro, gets lost with a memory problem, it just creates an uncomfortable situation for the audience and an even more uncomfortable situation for the performer. I am going to have to disagree, in a lot of ways, it is like walking a tight rope. As an audience member, we know that more then likely nothing bad is going to happen, but it might, and that is exciting. It is a little bit of Schadenfreude, also it is a bit of wanting to see the artist conquer the physical aspects of playing. I am not trying to say that is what people always want to see, but it is part of it. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks this way although, obviously, at least one person does. I have gone to hundreds of concerts and never gave this one second thought, and it seems a quite bizarre of thinking a concert experience even if it's only a tiny thought in the back of one's mind. Kind of like going to play and thinking about whether the actors will remember their lines. A parent going to their child's performance might be nervous or anxious about their child's memory failing but calling this a sense or drama or illusion of conflict seems like a wrong choice of words. Same thing with calling this exciting. Well, obviously, I am not talking about a children's performance, but performance of professionals. Though, wouldn't surprise me to have parents out there, wanting other children to screw up, and feel their child is better. I don't feel that it is a wrong choice of words at all. I do feel we have differing view points on this, and I totally respect where you are coming from. Though I also feel, it is not something outwardly spoken of, do you know many people who would? Of course not, that would make people just look petty.
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I can't imagine not having a piece memorized to perfection before performing it... Wait until master classes in a conservatory. Not the ones where you play for visiting artists with works that you've prepared solidly, but the master class with your teacher and the other students in his/her studio, intended for gaining performance familiarity with the major works. Not much prep time and memorizing is almost out of the question. How about a week for the "Dante Sonata" or the first movement of the Beethoven Fourth Concerto?
Ich grolle nicht.
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Here's a problem that maybe only an amateur would have. Am I the only person who can make an error from memory lapse even when performing with the score? I forgot to look at it and almost got myself into a repeating loop, thinking that I knew where the piece was going. I tend to have things mostly in memory but can fall between the two stools.
A local music school puts on an annual piano marathon, where most of the piano teaching staff play at least one piece, but usually two or three. Some use the score at times, and I've noticed that even with the score, it is possible for them to falter and get "lost" It seems very much like a memory lapse, but how can that be if you're not performing from memory? I am guessing it's the result of nerves. At any rate, these are music professionals and not amateurs (even if some concertize and others don't).
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Here's a problem that maybe only an amateur would have. Am I the only person who can make an error from memory lapse even when performing with the score? I forgot to look at it and almost got myself into a repeating loop, thinking that I knew where the piece was going. I tend to have things mostly in memory but can fall between the two stools.
A local music school puts on an annual piano marathon, where most of the piano teaching staff play at least one piece, but usually two or three. Some use the score at times, and I've noticed that even with the score, it is possible for them to falter and get "lost" It seems very much like a memory lapse, but how can that be if you're not performing from memory? I am guessing it's the result of nerves. At any rate, these are music professionals and not amateurs (even if some concertize and others don't). Personally, when I'm playing from the score, I can just as easily get lost as when playing from memory, because unless I'm sight-reading, I'm not looking at the score all the time. I might look at the keyboard for a second or two when I have to make a few big leaps, then look back at the score, by which time I'm several bars ahead of where I last looked, then get disorientated when my hands (now playing from muscle memory) aren't playing the music my eyes are seeing, and have to start searching for the right spot while continuing to play automatically... Of course, if I play music that has no big leaps, I could just keep my eyes on the score all the time, but very little of the music I enjoy playing is of this nature. Another solution is to rehearse exactly when I'll look away from the score and when I'll look back again, and write an asterisk to remind me where on the score I need to resume from. Which, for music I enjoy playing, sounds like just as much hard work as memorizing the music completely, and with rather less gains. Which is why these days, if I do decide I'm going to learn a piece properly (as opposed to 'half-learn' it sufficiently to play from the score with the odd hiccup), I end up memorizing it.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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Personally, when I'm playing from the score, I can just as easily get lost as when playing from memory, because unless I'm sight-reading, I'm not looking at the score all the time. I might look at the keyboard for a second or two when I have to make a few big leaps, then look back at the score, by which time I'm several bars ahead of where I last looked, then get disorientated when my hands (now playing from muscle memory) aren't playing the music my eyes are seeing, and have to start searching for the right spot while continuing to play automatically...
Of course, if I play music that has no big leaps, I could just keep my eyes on the score all the time, but very little of the music I enjoy playing is of this nature. Another solution is to rehearse exactly when I'll look away from the score and when I'll look back again, and write an asterisk to remind me where on the score I need to resume from. Which, for music I enjoy playing, sounds like just as much hard work as memorizing the music completely, and with rather less gains.
Which is why these days, if I do decide I'm going to learn a piece properly (as opposed to 'half-learn' it sufficiently to play from the score with the odd hiccup), I end up memorizing it. Part of learning to play with a score is learning to move your eyes to the keyboard and back to the score without losing your place. I think this is a learned skill like sight reading or any other skill at the piano. Also, if one practices playing a particular piece from the score one gets more familiar with where to look at that particular score.
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I have believed the argument that states that a piece can be developed more fully musically once it is memorized - has to do with not being distracted by the black dots on the page - you start "really hearing" your playing and can respond.
No? Comments? This very much amateur player is breathless!
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I would take gentle exception - gentle, because, perhaps he was applying the comment only to himself - to bennevis' implication that playing from the score means that a work is not 'properly' but only 'half-learned.'
To those who get lost when playing from the score, I say that you have to train yourself to knowing where you are in the score at all times, even when not reading from it. If there are particular spots where you always have to look at the score, post an adhesive (later, removable) colored dot at the trouble spot if you have trouble finding your place on the score.
To avoid awkward page turns I will often use a second copy of a work and read from the bottom of the page of copy 1 to wherever the next measure is in copy 2 - most cases, they are not the same editions of the work - until I get to a spot on copy 2 where I can turn the page back to copy 1. Then, I will have a bright green dot placed on the spot where I need to resume reading from copy 1. It may sound more complex than it is, but it sure helps avoid turning pages at awkward and/or impractical moments.
Regards,
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
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I have believed the argument that states that a piece can be developed more fully musically once it is memorized - has to do with not being distracted by the black dots on the page - you start "really hearing" your playing and can respond.
No? Comments? This very much amateur player is breathless! I wouldn't have agreed with that statement until three years ago when, for various reasons (mainly to do with learning more complicated pieces than I'd ever attempted before, because I'd finally acquired my own piano), I started to memorize pieces that I decided I wanted to keep in my repertoire indefinitely. That's when I found that I could play with more freedom and more spontaneity, and experiment with different coloristic effects the pieces I had memorized, which I couldn't do playing music I needed to use the score for. The very act of reading from the score stifled my (re)creative juices, maybe because constantly associating the notes on the page with a certain action with my hands made it more of a repetitive exercise than a recreative one. Since then, I've been adding more and more pieces to my long-term memory....
If music be the food of love, play on!
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I have believed the argument that states that a piece can be developed more fully musically once it is memorized - has to do with not being distracted by the black dots on the page - you start "really hearing" your playing and can respond.
No? Comments? This very much amateur player is breathless! But for starters this assumes one can memorize a piece and not have any nervousness about memory slips. If that was the case then the only downside of memorizing would be the additional time it takes and what you say might be a possible advantage. For most amateurs, even those who have no nervousness about memory slips, I think this downside of extra time far outweighs any freedom of musical expression some pianists might have when playing without the score. The difficulty with your idea is that for many the negative effects of nervousness about a memory lapse far outweigh any possible advantages of not being distracted by black dots.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 01/03/13 05:55 PM.
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