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Thank you for your feedback. We actually thought about this issue quite a bit. In fact, many of our beta testers said the same thing in terms of only probably using one piano and that we should price them individually.

However, over the course of several weeks almost all of our beta testers found themselves using all three pianos for different types of songs.

Many beta testers that had previously favored other industry standards such as Ivory or the Galaxy products found they didn't like going back to them after using True Keys for a short amount of time.

As we looked at the economics of the library we realized we could essentially give our users three distinctively different voiced pianos with three independently controlled stereo microphone perspectives for the price of two if we released it on one library.

If you find yourself listening to a demo and thinking you didn't like the particular sound.....keep in mind that you can always switch between the Close, Player and Side position or find a mix between them that suits you.

If you look on the first post on this thread it looks like Aeons Holle references a thread one of our beta testers made on the Music Player forum. For unbiased reaction from someone outside our company using True Keys in day to day session work it's probably worth a read:
Music Players Forum

VI Labs,

Many people prefer buying plug-ins individually. Over time some might change their minds and use all three in this package. However, a percentage of people will not invest in that possibility.

How do you feel about offering three different pianos priced individually and a bundled price of 3 for the price of 2?

This would be the best of both worlds.

A smaller number of people will buy 3 for the price of 2 than 1 for the price of 1.

For those who would buy the bundle, whatever price you are currently committed to will be available. For those who would never buy all three and would only choose one, a slightly higher price would still be better than the bundle price considering they would outlay more money and probably receive at least one piano they would not use.

The smallest group in the mix consists of those who would buy the bundle because there is no alternative. You will have the bundle group regardless because they are interested in the three. What you gain is the individual piano group and at a slightly higher price.

All I can see is more potential by offering these pianos individually at one rate and bundled at another rate.

I think that's basically what Galaxy does, isn't it? At least you used to be able to buy the suite or the individual pianos, with the bundle being cheaper than the three individual pianos. I can't seem to find a link to this now so maybe they have discontinued it.

I was just listening to the demos on the True Piano site and it occurred to me that it would be great if we could download a MIDI version of each of those demos and run them through our own sound generator (dp or vst) and see what we hear.

Do you think that would be a valid way to decide if it really is as good as it sounds on their site ?

And, if so, could we talk them into providing that for us ?

Am I dreaming ?

I learned long ago that demos on websites are completely worthless when it comes to playing pianos live. They can easily be doctored and don't reveal live playability issues. I bought my first software pianos based on demos, and they were the worst pianos I ever bought. I bought the rest of my pianos based on user comments from websites like this. Overall, those comments have been accurate once you sort out the biases of few commenters. You can easily tell when comments come from shills.

I agree with Macy below. I think it's important to use real world feedback to make your own conclusions. For what it's worth, the demos on our site come directly from True Keys with no outside processing other than the built-in convolution reverb from the engine.

I think o0ampy0o has a good point. Many of the songwriters out there are dissatisfied with thier current sampled pianos, but have a tight budget. I think you could better address the needs of your potential customers if you made both the package deal and the individual pianos available. Of course this would take some time, but would likely be beneficial financially.

I think I've personally spoken with many people on this site over the last few weeks with questions via e-mail, but I wanted to let everyone know that we're officially shipping True Keys now.

We're working on adding dealers around the US and the rest of the world, but you can also order online direct from our webstore for quick shipping. I look forward to hearing all the feedback from everyone.

If you're interested in buying just head over to www.vilabsaudio.com.

It's too expensive to become a Guinea Pig. It should have been $175 for individual pianos. Do you have a money back guarantee deal?

I agree, Macy. It's too much to ask me to pay $350 for three pianos. I did that with Ivory 1.5 years ago. I won't do it again.

If I were in the market for these pianos, I'd likely buy one of them. (Maybe two, slight chance.) Definitely not three.

As it stands, you can buy three. Or you can buy none. It's a shame.

The iLok is a killer here, too. The Pianoteq guys get by just fine without one. Why can't the True guys?

Macy,

We don't have a money back guarantee. Initial sales have been strong so far though so I suspect the feedback and reviews should begin rolling in over the next couple of weeks.

We've been working on True Keys for nearly 4 years so in many ways you're getting version one and version two out of the gate. We knew there was no reason to come to market unless we could really push the envelope when it came to piano VI's. It just happened to take us 4 years to get it to that level.

Cool, well done on getting it out officially.

I'm sure you guys made an informed decision on not selling them individually, despite concerns being raised here (at the least). I'm looking out for an individual piano so this won't be for me. Unless those reviews you are counting on will sway me otherwise

Given the exceptional quality of the Vintage D and the American Concert D, I don't know what anyone could say about another software piano that would make me want to spend twice their price to replace them. They have established the market price for state-of-the-art pianos. Although I can (fortunately) afford to buy all the VST pianos on the market, after it while it becomes a matter of principle not to over-pay for these things. Especially when price and quality don't correlate on previous piano software products.

If Vintage D et al are of exceptional quality and no other software could possibly be much better, why are you posting here apparently interested in another piano VST? No offense meant, just wondering.

I would prefer the individual pianos as well, for obvious reasons. I bought Ivory II back in the day but I only ever use one piano of it. Vintage D certainly has a competitive price (American D less so, but still acceptable). So $350 is indeed a bit much unless there was an actual playable demo. I'll admit the provided demos do sound very nice but they have a good bit of reverb, and listening to Vintage D demos with similiar reverb does make it sound somewhat similiar for the demanding classical pieces. Reverb just tends to connect the notes and possibly makes it sound more resonant (usually the down side of sampled pianos).

So, I'm not sure if I'll buy it right now, although it's tempting. What's $350 compared to what we spend on other stuff, right? Thinking of the gear involved in that Pianoteq patch the other day...

Vintage D, Ivory II/American D... all nice, but far from perfect. I guess I'll think about it.

Ryan/VILabs, thanks for the headsup!

As I mentioned before in another thread, I have already decided to be a guinea pig for this.
So, I have just bought True Keys: Pianos via the webstore. The registration and ordering process went smooth, and the flatrate shipping is definitely a nice feature for international customers.

I promise to post a review and create DPBSD samples of all the pianos in the bundle. Hopefully dewster will have worked through his backlog by the time I get this...

Precisely, like I have already paid for a VST grand set. Now I want to add on with different pianos like Italian Grands, better Steinways, uprights, etc.

Right now I'm looking around for a good Italian grand. If this one was sold separately, I would probably choose it over Ivory's.

Well, I can definitely understand the arguments of those wanting to buy only one piano of the suite.
But I do also see why VI Labs decided to offer only the bundle - as Ryan mentioned earlier in the thread, the bundle is priced the same as two individual pianos would have been if they had offered that option.

My thoughts and math (and why I'm fine with getting the bundle):

With the current USD/EUR exchange rate, True Keys set me back about €280.
That's 20€ more than the whole Ivory II Grand Pianos suite. I consider that competitively priced.
It is also 20€ less than Ivory II Italian Grand and American D combined, so I get a 3 piano bundle for less than 2 separate pianos which I bought in the past.
And considering Ryan's pricing statement, since I would have wanted to buy at least the True Keys American and German libraries, I basically get the Italian on top for free.

My first piano VST was Ivory II Italian. I instantly did not like it, so that money was wasted completely. Then I got the Ivory Grand Piano Suite, of which I liked the German D best. More money all in all, but at least I got something usable out of it. So maybe that's the reason I'm partial to bundles. As I quickly realized, the playability makes all the difference, and you can't judge that from demos, so I rather have more pianos to try and find my favourite.

Of course, being able to demo the product and then only buy the favourite piano would be by far the best option for a potential customer; it's too bad this is so difficult with a heavyweight sample library.

In any case, more options are always good for the customer, so maybe the single libraries will be made available individually sometime in the future. I guess that will depend on whether VI Labs considers demand for this to be big enough.

BTW, the manual for True Keys is up on their website:
True Keys Pianos Manual

After going through it, my expectations for the product are now even higher. Apart from being hyped up by the introduction, I'm specifically excited about their understanding and implementation of repetition strikes.

EWQLP looked great on paper too - it has true repetition samples and true staccato. However, I find that it behaves better without the repetitions, and the staccato doesn't actually work for normal live playing - you have to use the mod wheel to "select" the stacatto samples! I'll be interested to see how it goes with True Keys. ;^)

Greg_the_wet_blanket

Thanks for noticing the little details on that.

Part of the team that worked on True Keys is already responsible for a very popular piano VI that is spoken of very highly even on these forums.

I won't elaborate on that specifically, but we continued what was started and pushed the envelope to new heights and added quite a few more features.

I need to stop hyping it up and let everyone start playing it though :-).

-Ryan @ VI Labs.

I'm always interested in a new pianos and hopeful that they will improve upon previous products. My exact words were, "I don't know what anyone could say about another software piano that would make me want to spend twice their price to replace them." I'm really objecting to bundling the pianos to drive up the price to just try their product. I think the Vintage D and American Concert D have established the price for state-of-art pianos at $140-$180, not $350. It just annoys me to pay twice as much (or more) to see if I like one of these 3 pianos better than the Vintage D. On the other hand I'd immediately buy one of them to try if it were priced at $180, just as I immediately bought the American Concert D when it became available.

I can see where some people might like the ACD better than the Vintage D, although personally I still prefer the Vintage D. (I'll spare you stories about how good I think it is.) But I don't feel disappointed that I bought the ACD at $180 and still continue to experiment with it trying to find some setup that I would prefer over the Vintage D. However, I would feel very disappointed had I paid $350 just to try it and it didn't become my primary piano. Like I said above, I'm quite fortunate and could easily just go buy every software piano that was introduced. But I still don't like the feeling of overpaying for things even if I can.

BTW, I'm not the least impressed that there are 3 pianos in this bundle. I've already purchased EWQL (4 pianos) and Ivory II (3 pianos) at similar or higher prices. I paid over $400 for EWQL and have always felt extremely annoyed by having to pay for all 4 of their pianos. Had I been able to buy one of those pianos for $180-$200, then I would never had bought the others and simply emotionally wrote it off as a learning experience.

If these new pianos were all state of the art then I would be happy to pay $180 each for them. If none are state of the art then I suspect I would find out after buying the first one and buy no more. The fact that they are bundled suggests to me that at most only one of them is likely to be really good. Else the company would have the confidence to sell them individually knowing that after you like the first one you bought you would want to buy another to try. If you have a great product your customers will always come back for more. If they don't have that confidence in their pianos it's a red flag to me.