2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
87 members (AndrewJCW, Beemer, aphexdisklavier, anotherscott, 36251, 21 invisible), 1,002 guests, and 545 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 #2005866 12/29/12 01:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
To trill or not to trill ... that is the question.

Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind
to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
or to take arms against a sea of troubles ...
and by opposing, end them.
(Guess who’s just been hamming Hamlet?)

I’ve just played the first 6 measures of the Debussy L’isle joyeuse (my French is rotten ... what’s CD talking about) ... but other than testing my loopy trilling skills ... can’t go into raptures over the Quasi una cadenza. (scrub round the fingering)

Must rather get back to hamming Clair de Lune.


Re: L'isle joyeuse
Mark_C #2006055 12/29/12 02:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,014
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by DanS
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by jackbirdy412
....I'm trilling on 2 and 4 because even though my edition suggests trilling on 3 and 5 I simply can't do that fast enough and I don't want to make things unnecessarily difficult for myself.

Of course! IMO 3-5 is completely and utterly ridiculous. I know that the people who do editions are supposedly experts, but.....all I can say is "but."
3-5 is completely ridiculous.

I disagree. 35 isn't bad at all, but I suppose everyone's different. I use 35 and then switch to 4 on the last D#. I find that much easier than trying to use thumb on C and then 2 on B, but then again, I have big hands and fat fingers.

Impossible to know without hearing you, but I'd bet a few quarters that however well you play it using 3-5, you'd do a better job on it using 2-4.


Perhaps with some more practice. I remember trying out lots of different fingering with this one and settling with 35 because it was best way to keep a fluid wrist motion on the 1st augmented chord. Using 23 then 1 on C just didn't fit into my hand well. I'm sure I'll be dusting this one off one of these days, I'll have to give it some thought.

Last edited by DanS; 12/29/12 02:24 PM.
Re: L'isle joyeuse
DanS #2006067 12/29/12 03:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
What about articulation and brilliance?

While it's dangerous to say this about someone we don't know and have never heard, I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no way you can do it as well with 3-5 as you could with 2-4.

Absolutely no way. smile

And even if you could (which you couldn't) grin 3-5 is unhealthier for the hand.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
Kuanpiano #2006100 12/29/12 04:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 635
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 635
Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
I'm surprised you would need to use the left hand for this....I found a very comfortable fingering to be:

trill on 2-3, then 1-2-3-5-2 1-3-5-2 1-2-3-5

Though I guess you can also try trilling with 3-5 and following through with the same fingering.


This is the best answer (imo).

Re: L'isle joyeuse
Mark_C #2006256 12/29/12 09:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,014
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,014
Originally Posted by Mark_C
What about articulation and brilliance?

While it's dangerous to say this about someone we don't know and have never heard, I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no way you can do it as well with 3-5 as you could with 2-4.

Absolutely no way. smile

And even if you could (which you couldn't) grin 3-5 is unhealthier for the hand.


Well sure 23 is easier to control, but 35 works fine for me, although I'll admit it's a bit of a compromise. I'm not looking to continue that trill for very long, or to do a great big crescendo like this guy. That's just not subtle enough for my tastes...and besides, what are you going to do on the 3rd measure? 35 trill lets you play the wholetone run with just one cross over. 23 on that trill means two crossovers, or crossing 5 over 1 (which for me could really kill the smoothness of that run), or bringing in the LH.

Gees, with this discussing, I could have learned the trill with 45 in my LH! grin

Certainly some food for thought. I'm sure I'll be checking different things on this one next time I play it. I actually saw a guy playing the trill 2 handed. That's something I never would have considered, but whatever works... wink

Re: L'isle joyeuse
DanS #2006302 12/30/12 12:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Originally Posted by DanS
....I actually saw a guy playing the trill 2 handed....

Too brilliant. ha

Which gets to, the way we choose to finger/distribute the passage should ideally be related to how we think we want to play it -- i.e. concept and interpretation. I think discussions about fingering too often neglect that; it's as though it's purely a question of mechanics.

IMO if someone chooses "3-5" for the trill, it should mean that his concept is that the trill isn't to be played very brilliantly, also that he is wishing to develop tendonitis. grin

Re: L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 #2006354 12/30/12 05:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,094
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,094
I'd consider using three fingers for the trill - 243424 or 242324. for example. Using that kind of trill helps the hand "flow" into what follows, I think.



Re: L'isle joyeuse
wr #2006358 12/30/12 05:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Originally Posted by wr
I'd consider using three fingers for the trill - 243424 or 242324. for example. Using that kind of trill helps the hand "flow" into what follows, I think.

Many people seem to like multi-finger trills but I've never found them useful, and I would think they are least useful for brilliant-ish trills, which is how most people would probably want to play this.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 #2006393 12/30/12 07:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 830
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 830
I find it fascinating to see how many different fingerings people use in this passage!

While the fingering suggested by Kuanpiano works fine for me, I feel slightly more comfortable playing the first note of the piece with 2 and then trilling with 13 before playing the following C natural with 2, leaving the repeating pattern 1352 for the next three beats. I tend to favour repeating patterns as easier for my brain and muscles to play and learn/retain, and also I find it slightly easier to increase the volume of the trill with 13 than 23.

It never would have occurred to me to use the LH here, and I agree with those who think it's better to find a workable solution using just the RH.


(Used to post as SlatterFan)
Re: L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 #2006480 12/30/12 10:33 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
The only thing bad about some comments is the way some posters assume what doesn't work for them is inappropriate for others.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 #2006516 12/30/12 12:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 353
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 353
It doesn't matter which fingers you trill with, as long as you exit the trill with 4 (or 5) on the last d# and 3 on the last c#, so that you take c-natural with 2 and b with 1. Some here have suggested taking c with 1 and crossing over to 2 on b, which is nuts. There is no reason to use the left hand, and I've never seen anyone do it.

Slightly OT: nearly everyone (including me, sometimes) seems to want to play these opening trills as rapdily and brilliantly as possible, within a soft dynamic. I'm not sure that's necessary. For the trills that end the piece, it is, but maybe not for those at the beginning.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
pianoloverus #2006536 12/30/12 12:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The only thing bad about some comments is the way some posters assume what doesn't work for them is inappropriate for others.

I don't agree. ha

In general what you said is true. But it isn't always. I hold to it being pretty close to absolutely true that "3-5" is very far from your best fingering for the trill, and that 2-4 would be better. However well you could do it with 3-5, you could do it better with 2-4. (Repeated for emphasis.) grin

I would also offer that the only reason any editor would have thought of showing "3-5" is a reluctance to "slide" a subsequent finger from one note to the next -- which is (if someone is a reasonably advanced pianist) a completely needless reluctance.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
Lemon Pledge #2006540 12/30/12 01:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Slightly OT: nearly everyone (including me, sometimes) seems to want to play these opening trills as rapdily and brilliantly as possible, within a soft dynamic....

I don't think anyone has specified that. It's certainly not how I see it.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
Mark_C #2006548 12/30/12 01:17 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The only thing bad about some comments is the way some posters assume what doesn't work for them is inappropriate for others.

I don't agree. ha

In general what you said is true. But it isn't always. I hold to it being pretty close to absolutely true that "3-5" is very far from your best fingering for the trill, and that 2-4 would be better. However well you could do it with 3-5, you could do it better with 2-4. (Repeated for emphasis.) grin

I would also offer that the only reason any editor would have thought of showing "3-5" is a reluctance to "slide" a subsequent finger from one note to the next -- which is (if someone is a reasonably advanced pianist) a completely needless reluctance.
One poster already said they liked 35 the best. Have you taught this piece at least 20 times so you can judge what's best or are you assuming that what's best for you is best for others? There have been a huge number of different suggested fingering for this passage.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
Lemon Pledge #2006550 12/30/12 01:20 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Some here have suggested taking c with 1 and crossing over to 2 on b, which is nuts. There is no reason to use the left hand, and I've never seen anyone do it.
But Kuanpiano, who we know is a terrific pianist based on his recordings, likes that one the best.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
pianoloverus #2006552 12/30/12 01:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,090
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
One poster already said they liked 35 the best....

However, see this later post.
Also, from the prior posts it was clear that part of his reasoning was that he apparently never considered or tried using the same finger on two consecutive notes, and therefore apparently had never tried the alternate fingering. Would you disagree that in such a situation, it is far from indicating that 3-5 is better for him than 2-4?

Re: L'isle joyeuse
pianoloverus #2006558 12/30/12 01:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 353
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 353
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Some here have suggested taking c with 1 and crossing over to 2 on b, which is nuts. There is no reason to use the left hand, and I've never seen anyone do it.
But Kuanpiano, who we know is a terrific pianist based on his recordings, likes that one the best.


Since you seem to think you need to speak for him, I'll point out that he did not say that. He merely said that he found it very comfortable. If he's using a 2-3 trill, maybe he'd get better results exiting the trill with 4 and 3, as I've suggested, rather than crossing over the thumb. I'm not implying anything about his abilities; I've never heard him play.


I guess I also need to add that even if I describe a fingering as crazy, I'm not so narrow-minded as to think that 100% of the pianists on Earth should agree.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
Lemon Pledge #2006565 12/30/12 01:57 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 28,848
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Some here have suggested taking c with 1 and crossing over to 2 on b, which is nuts. There is no reason to use the left hand, and I've never seen anyone do it.
But Kuanpiano, who we know is a terrific pianist based on his recordings, likes that one the best.


Since you seem to think you need to speak for him, I'll point out that he did not say that. He merely said that he found it very comfortable. If he's using a 2-3 trill, maybe he'd get better results exiting the trill with 4 and 3, as I've suggested, rather than crossing over the thumb. I'm not implying anything about his abilities; I've never heard him play.


I guess I also need to add that even if I describe a fingering as crazy, I'm not so narrow-minded as to think that 100% of the pianists on Earth should agree.
You called the fingering he liked "nuts". Whether it was his absolute favorite seems irrelevant, but it apparently was the one he chose to use. He is an excellent pianist, probably better than 98% or more of the PW members. If a articular fingering works for a very good pianist I think it is probably not in the "nuts' category.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
pianoloverus #2006574 12/30/12 02:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 353
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 353
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Lemon Pledge
Some here have suggested taking c with 1 and crossing over to 2 on b, which is nuts. There is no reason to use the left hand, and I've never seen anyone do it.
But Kuanpiano, who we know is a terrific pianist based on his recordings, likes that one the best.


Since you seem to think you need to speak for him, I'll point out that he did not say that. He merely said that he found it very comfortable. If he's using a 2-3 trill, maybe he'd get better results exiting the trill with 4 and 3, as I've suggested, rather than crossing over the thumb. I'm not implying anything about his abilities; I've never heard him play.


I guess I also need to add that even if I describe a fingering as crazy, I'm not so narrow-minded as to think that 100% of the pianists on Earth should agree.
You called the fingering he liked "nuts". Whether it was his absolute favorite seems irrelevant, but it apparently was the one he chose to use. He is an excellent pianist, probably better than 98% or more of the PW members. If a articular fingering works for a very good pianist I think it is probably not in the "nuts' category.


Of course the relative value of various fingerings is "relevant." I can play this passage just fine with Kuanpiano's fingering, the one I described as nuts, but I can play it better with mine. If it makes you happy, I'll retract "nuts" and replace it with "inferior" or "sub-optimal", with (again) the shouldn't-be-necessary qualification that I don't expect all pianists (excellent or not) to agree.

My contribution to this thread was intended as practical advice, based on experience, for anyone struggling to get what they want out of this passage. That's all.

Re: L'isle joyeuse
jackbirdy412 #2006580 12/30/12 02:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 644
J
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 644
24242424 \ 24242424 \ 24321352 \ 13521235

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Searching for my first piano
by AndresVel - 01/16/21 03:34 PM
Tuning pin video
by accordeur - 01/16/21 03:22 PM
Concert pianist opintions regarding DP actions
by Marc345 - 01/16/21 02:50 PM
Size, placement, brand
by Anjru - 01/16/21 02:31 PM
KAWAI CA79 METRONOME
by Giovanni Zanini - 01/16/21 01:43 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,299
Posts3,047,439
Members100,079
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4