Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner one opinion of an amateur piano judge

OK, fair's fair, I will watch it.

I understand your argument to an extent, about not making a fool of yourself in public, I think, although I may have that wrong too.

But my contention is that you fail by not trying, not by not succeeding, if you see what I mean.

As I said earlier, there is much we are not aware of in this situation and, IMO, the the best reaction will hopefully be the one the student concerned chooses to take.

Anyway, I will now watch the poor (but brave) ice-skater...

Right, I have seen it...

"The coach/teacher, who has foreseen the crash, had warned the ice-skater/student not to perform the high jump/the Chopin Nocturne"

I think that the situation in the OP is slightly different, the student had started studying the piece but after a conversation with a third party the teacher vetoed it.

But the ice-skater's trainer would have seen that jump performed possibly many times before by the dancer.

The piano teacher should at least, at the very least, have discussed any reasons or alternatives first. (again, IMO)

I do feel the teacher has been bullied and instead of presenting a just cause has capitulated and responded by bullying the student.

However, (Disclaimer arriving...)

I do not know all the details, but I would be disappointed if I was the victim of these events.

There are many levels of amateurs, from real amateurs to ex-professionals. In amateur competitions, you will see all kinds of people, those who entered piano competition for the first time, and those who had participated in real professional piano competitions such as Van Cliburn or Tschaikovsky. For the upper tier contestants, Op. 48 No. 1 is nothing, but for majority of the contestants to play Op. 48 No. 1 at professional level is not easy. Even though, we are talking about amateur competitions, but the requirements to advance to the next level is not amateur at all. That is why most people who advanced to the semi or final stage were, usually, people who have strong piano background.

For most amateur piano competition participants, Op. 48 No.1 is doable to play, but to play well is different story. I think it was what my teacher was trying to tell my friend. He just does not see that my friend will be able to play that piece well.

I would not say that for ANY person this Chopin Nocturne is NOTHING?? Very complex as far as technique and interpretation In my estimate. This piece would be a disaster at the hands of an intermediate nervous Amateur. Also...regarding the "Live Streaming". I think the Competitions have started doing it to draw more attention to their Competition. It certainly is great for friends and family...but terrifying at first to one who has never experienced it. You feel like if you screw up the whole world is watching. I don't think we try any harder to play well and when one starts playing hopefully can concentrate on the music.

I felt that equally at competitions when I was playing just for the judges, the audience, and maybe most of all my fellow competitors.
For me, the video cameras are almost a welcome distraction from that!

Yeah, give me millions of half-listening people anytime. It's when only one very acute listener is paying their utmost attention that I do not want to let them down...

The OP's first post was discussing a specific person's ability to play Op. 48. Whether this piece is appropriate for some random or average competitor in an amateur competition does not seem relevant to me. I don't think the teacher said that no amateur should play this but that the specific pianist mentioned shouldn't attempt it.

I think we all hear numerous comments every day we think range from rude to very nice. I also think that each person hears these comments in a different way from other people. I don't see much relevance in discussing ad infinitum how each person reacts to a comment.

Your friend spent two weeks of practice time working on this. So what? The teacher was perfectly justified in suggesting that she NOT perform the piece if it wasn't up to snuff.


It was inappropriate for your teacher to share the judge's comment after the competition. It should have been kept as a confidence between the teacher and the judge. Nothing constructive results from sharing this type of comment with the teacher's other students.


This is where we get into trouble - and is probably why this particular thread has gone on "ad infinitum." You were there - the judge was there - and we weren't. Nevertheless, if this is the judge's attitude about amateur competitions in general, then perhaps he shouldn't put himself in the position of judging them.

FINIS

I am bothered about why the teacher told it. He's manipulating the student into not playing through fear of being laughed at. But there is something worse, because it could undermine the student's confidence at such events from then on. There is the idea that the judges that you are playing in front of find you and every other amateur laughable and inferior. How do you play in front of people who you think may hold that attitude under their bland demeanour? I've only played at exams, not competitions, but I trusted that the person judging me knew I was a student who was still learning, but took me seriously. If my teacher had told me beforehand that judges laugh at students I don't know how that would have affected my confidence. I don't like manipulation, period.

Did you ever play a piece at an exam that your teacher had strictly prohibited you from playing?

I was an adult violin student. I used "exams" generically, sorry - I did one exam after I had done 7 or 8 pieces, and my teacher asked me which two I'd like to do for the exam. He helped me choose the ones that would sound best for the judge. I was once forbidden to perform in a recital, because the piece was not up to snuff. A preteen had played it at the previous recital with some poor timing, but he said that he expected more from me. This strengthened my confidence more than if he had let me go ahead with lower expectations. (Just thinking of that.) I was very disappointed at the time, though.

Actually I don't think that you can play something at an exam against the teacher's wishes, because the choices are submitted ahead of time and the teacher is part of that.

It is unclear (based on the way the original post is written) as to exactly WHEN the teacher made the comment....before or after the competition. In either instance it would have been inappropriate to share the comment.

In an ideal world one would hope that the judges in a competition or exam were taking you seriously. But you can't really know (or worry about) what they or anyone else in the audience are thinking. Just focus on playing your pieces to the best of your ability.

So what make you think that a student can play something at a competition against the teacher's wishes?

Besides, in this case it was not just a wish, the teacher told her that she screwed/would screw (probably Ronald should make this clear) the nocturne.

The way the OP was writing, it would seem before, because he says that "it worked" and the student chose another piece. I agree with what you are saying, however.


True. But you are also trying to build confidence in your student, and planting that kind of image in a student's head does not seem to be good.

There is so much here to consider. As I have made several comments already I am now in a different situation to the reaction I would have given at the time.

I am actually less annoyed at the judge, I don't think much of him, but that is his failing, and more offended by the teacher. I think I would have to go back to this at some time if it was me as I do not know if I could let it rest. Why did the teacher need an off-hand (presumably) comment to make a definite decision?

Why didn't the teacher (presumably) challenge the judge making such a remark?

Does anybody remember the series "The Wonder Years"?

Kevin takes piano lessons in one episode and plays a piece at a recital for other students. He plays poorly but is very upset when another child plays the same piece well and the teacher explains why she allowed that to happen.

Typically, and most usefully.... I have forgotten the explanation!
Well, it was a long time ago but, as was often the case in The Wonder Years, it was a beautiful study of humanity, challenge and life-lessons.

Not least, as Valentina Lisitsa said when asked who was the best, Vladimir Horowitz, Glenn Gould or Lang Lang, "Who knows? There is no one truth".

Carey asked me if I had ever played a piece at an exam against my teacher's wishes, and I said that I didn't think it would be possible because our pieces are registered along with the teacher's approval ahead of time. The passage you quoted says the word exam. I never expressed such a thought.

and it was Hakki (not me) who asked the exam question.

[Digression alert.] This piqued my interest, so I looked up the episode in question and found a transcript. To sum up the missing explanation... At a dress rehearsal a week before the recital, Kevin finds out that his teacher's star piano pupil is playing the same piece he is! He is dismayed. Star pupil plays a flawless rendition. Teacher announces that she wants to show how two performers have a different interpretation of the same piece. Kevin then plays, and bombs. Despite encouragement, he withdraws from the recital. ... then regrets it. Here's the closing sequence, while Kevin is watching the star pupil play "his" piece at the recital.

[Shot of KEVIN stopped on his bike, looking toward the house in the background.]
NARRATOR: I never did forget that night. I remember the light glowing from Mrs. Carples' window. And I remember the darkness falling as I sat out there on the street looking in.
And now... More than twenty years later... I still remember every note of the music that wandered out into the still night air. The only thing is... I can't remember how to play it anymore. [He rides his bike off down the street.]

This judge did not comment on this particular student, but commenting on general participants. They often wanted to laugh when they listened to the participants way of playing. By the way, I had a lesson with my teacher last Saturday. I confirmed with him what the judge said. He did confirmed what I stated earlier.

You misread his post. Take another look.

And BTW, this is an example of how easy it is to misunderstand something, or to get it at least a little wrong in a way that changes the meaning a lot, even something pretty simple like in the above post. And it's why there's reason to have doubt about what was conveyed 3rd hand in the OP (which was something much less simple) and even IMO 2nd hand, as in the above post.

Which, I believe, has been part of the problem with this entire thread !!!!