Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Post Revised: Need To Develop Technique

Hello:

Please note that I have revised the post below, due to its original length, which upon review seemed to be too long.

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First of all – a very warm and happy holiday season to you all.

I have not been to this forum for awhile, but have always found this site and its various forums helpful in the past.

In looking over a recent post, I happened to come across one which had some commonalities with my playing / performance issue. But, I did want to post my own inquiry, since my situation is a little bit different.

Before I get to my actual questions,please allow me to mention a couple of things about my musical background.

I reside in the NY / NJ area and an intermediate pianist. I'm in my late 40's and have been playing since early childhood followed by lessons from ages 11 through 16. I also worked playing casuals / private functions as a keyboardist for over a dozen years. And reached a certain level of playing in the interim. However this was non-classical music (R&B, Pop and Rock etc.).


My Current technical ability as is pertains to Solo (Classical) Piano is much better than it was when I was actively performing. For example: I’ve memorized the Minute Waltz on my own but the performance is not as controlled as it should be. Also, I’ve recently learned Gershwin’s “I Got Rhythm” transcription for solo piano. However the second (stride) section of the piece fatigues my left arm. Even when played slower than the Angela Brownridge rendition I have of it.

However, after years of playing, I still am unable to get past the level I am now in. I also want to make a point to note that I do aspire to perform again. But would like to play at a truly professional level.
Like an other gentleman who recently posted on the PianoWorld forum, my time is limited, with a few hours spent traveling per week day in additional to an 8 hour job.

So, here are my questions:

1)I’m in need of an instructor: Classically based for technique. In other workds someone who would correct my technical faults and work on site reading rather than just working on interpretation.

2) How many hours should a “serious” student practice? Is this relative to their
unique situation or ability?

4) I've read on another post that Czerny exercises were a waste of time for adults. I would assume that his includes Hanon as well. Please clarify on why this is?

5) I’ve seen very young people play with impressive technique… for example Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody. I’ve seen video’s of this as well on the “Freeing the Caged Bird” Web Site outlining the Babara Lester-Sink method. How is a great technique really developed? Or, are the students shown just gifted or fortunate to be exposed to the correct environment. Judging by what I’ve seen in this area - physical mastery of an instrument should take about 6-7 years.

6) Since, I have not acquired that level of playing ability that I’d like. Should I assume that this is due to lack of talent or ability? Or is it some other reason.

I know that there are multiple topics I’m touching on. But, I would appreciate your responses and opinions.

My Warmest Regards,
Anthony

Anthony, I sent you a PM.

It all depends. A serious, would be professional should be spending at least 4 hours a day, but it all depends on what you want to get out of it. Also, while the amount of time you spend practicing is important, you have to make sure it's quality time. Spending 4 hours a day just blowing through pieces won't get you as far as spending 2 hours a day working intelligently.



I don't think so. Sounds to me that you just need the right teacher.





It sounds like it would be beneficial to really work on scales and arpeggios with a knowledgeable teacher.

your? Whose?



You may well find that many who may have the inclination to help will be discouraged by the length of your personal history and may decide to refrain from responding.



Unfortunately for those who might hope to help you, a list of what you might be able to play says little, because it doesn't indicate your "learning curve" when you approach a new work, and, more importantly, it doesn't indicate how well you play neither from a technical nor an artistic point.



but what sort of practice? what quality of practice?



There's nothing like having good goals to motivate you, but make sure that they are practical. Someone your age with your limited training who aspires to professional performance seems to me to be someone who does not have both feet on the ground.



"... the other gentleman who posted??



Czerny, Hanon et al can be useful for those who need them and who, at the same time, use them appropriately.



"Physical mastery" of an instrument cannot be shoe-horned into a time-frame. It should be well understood, however, that for most of us it requires a great deal of time with conscientious continuous and appropriate practice.

Whatever that playing ability might be, from what I read it can quite possibly be a lack of sufficient and consistent practice building a technical foundation.



In my opinion, there are too many diverse and some too-broad topics here for anyone to address in any practical manner.

What most will say - or, at least, what I will say - is that you need a good teacher; one who will assess your current musical skills, abilities and talents and one who will guide you through a program commensurate with those skills and your needs. Good teachers, in most parts of North America, don't teach for peanuts, so you need to be prepared to pay for good lessons.

You would be well-advised to seek out teachers in your area - there must be hundreds in the NY-NJ area, some near you - and seriously interview them. That, to me, is the only way you are going to find the kind of instruction you need which will - eventually - provide you with the results you may be looking for. It is, however, a long road. I get the impression from what you write - along with the fact that you are addressing your issues with strangers here - that you are looking for a rather quick-fix, but I hope that I well may be wrong.

However, one with your musical "history," a full-time job, plus hours of traveling time per week should not, realistically, expect to attain something akin to "professional" status for at least several years and only that with the time devoted to practice that you say you don't have.

What it comes down to is that none of us, even those of us who teach, can assess and advise you appropriately. You need a teacher who can respond to you, and finding the right one should be your top priority.

Regards,

Often when a person has this kind of background they are searching and don't yet know what is pertinent. A lot of info allows one to see possible pertinent bits, while if it's brief that isn't possible. Following the advice about length, the OP shortened his post. Fortunately the whole info is still in the teacher forum. What's gone missing is the info on past lessons. So trying to summarize a bit:

AK14 started self-taught, had lessons at 10 with a teacher whose amazing scales were intimidating, and from 11 - 14 studied with someone who taught "on the side": what's listed are JT, Hanon and random pieces. Followed by the above playing history. Recent attempts to find a teacher yielded instructions on how a piece should sound, or being given piece after piece. Recent improved technical ability is described in terms of, for example, a memorized Minute Waltz.

I'm guessing that the OP has never had proper instruction, knows he's missing something, but since he's not had it, is groping around in the dark in the search for what's missing. If you've been there or have seen it, then you can recognize it. The dastardly thing is that nothing can be expressed clearly because one is floundering about in the unknown. This is interpreted as attitude, when it's actually lack of knowledge.

Anthkeys14, with proper lessons you would have been taught various skills incrementally over time. These start with the basics of sitting at the piano at the right distance and height, how to move fundamentally; learning to read music; how to approach new pieces and how to practice. For a young child these may be modeled simply by how instructions are given. These things become the tools that let you polish music later at the advanced level. Less good instruction focuses on pieces for their own sake, rather than on developing skills, though some good teachers will appear to be focusing on pieces but they are sneaking in the skills.

It is possible that you were never given these kinds of tools. In regards to the first teacher who impressed you with how he played scales, there is a difference between being able to play well, and teaching someone how to play well. Among other things, the teacher has to break down what is involved, and then develop those things in his student. A scale, for example, includes good finger motion and hand/arm motion, listening for even sound, and a bit of theory. John Thomson is full of finger numbers, which can stop reading from developing.

When you come to teachers as an adult who already plays, too many of them will focus on pieces, as in your experience. What you probably want is to have a teacher assess all your skills and knowledge, find the holes and then start working on that. Besides technique that might include how to approach and develop your music. You may need to learn new ways of practising, and you might be looking at a lot of basics. As Bruce indicated, if you do find a teacher who will work this way, then you have to be committed to following through over a long period of time - more likely years than months.

After you decide whether you can invest that kind of time, you have to find a teacher. Being able to define your goals will probably bring you a lot closer. Maybe discussions like the one here can help you refine it so that your long rambling paragraphs will become a couple of clear sentences.

Hello Bruce:

I wanted to personally thank you for your reply, as it did contain some very useful insights and opinions. You sound extremely well informed. Being somewhat new to this forum. may I ask what your background is?

However, I felt that the comment you made regarding my sounding as if I did not have both feet on the ground, was more than a little condescending. Although I do understand your point.

I also did take your advice to heart regarding the length of my original post, and edited the superfluous information to make it more concise. I do not know why I felt I needed to write an essay.

But I did want to answer some of the questions you brought up in your reply.

1) The other post I was referring to came from another amateur pianist who was having problems progressing past a certain technical level, but was looking for another way to proceed rather than engage a professional teacher (due to lack of time in his opinion).

2) I turned to the forum to ask for assistance due to frustration with my own efforts in finding a "solid" instructor for serious adult piano students. I felt that since this forum was national in scope, I could find a recommendation.

I had tried previously to contact conservatories in my area (such as Julliard), however they could only provide a listing of their students and/or graduates who taught without any specific recommendations. I also contacted some other sources as well.

3) Although I am 49 this year, I have spent most of my life playing the piano and keyboards. And as you pointed out, my studies were limited and not sufficient. Lasting only about 5-6 years. But I am far from an adult beginner, since following this I was self-taught and worked semi-professionally playing music for over a dozen years.

I put my love of music on the back burner to pursue an IT Career as an economic choice. This was in my view, the "responsible" choice at the time, as I needed to earn a living.

A mistake was made however in not continually striving to obtain additional training (private or otherwise) to improve my playing/reading... which might have brought true professional opportunities down the road. And this is a deep regret.

However, I do still wish to reach that level of playing. And am willing to make the sacrifices it entails. Understanding that this may take years.

I've also recently seen the newest winners of the Yamaha Amateur Pianist Competition as listed in PIANIST magazine. The First Prize was split among to people, one of whom was an Electrical Engineer who looked to be in his 50's.
They wrote that the bar set for the performance level this year was very high! And that the playing of the finalist was superb.

Examples such as this is what moves me to reach the same level(s). And if I should be able to take advantage of an opportunity as a result of my hard work, then so be it.

I thank you again for your reply.

Respectfully,
Anthony

I'm going to give my answer for question 2. Another poster suggested 4 hours per day. I'm going to guess that wouldn't fit your schedule. For me anything less than an hour per days and I'll be doing make-up work trying to get back to where I already was. More than an hour a day and I improve. Much more than an hour a day and I improve much. To get to the level you desire may take more time than you have on a daily basis (that or you have no home life nor social life).

This is all why I've decided to concentrate on composing. I don't have the time, the power of concentration nor the back (my back starts to hurt after about 1/2 hour) to make myself the pianist I'd like to be.

As for question 6, it's 10 percent inspiration and ability and 90 percent perspiration.

Good luck.

These two things go hand in hand in a loop, and this is the crux of the matter. If a person has never been taught properly, then one of the things he needs to learn is what proper practice means, what real goals are. In order to learn these things he needs a good teacher. But to get that good teacher he has to interview teachers, know what to ask and what to listen for. Which he won't be able to do since he doesn't know enough by dint of that same lack of good instruction. And so it goes in a circle.

A way to get out of that circle is by brainstorming and narrowing it down until you know enough to try going after that teacher again. Which brings us to sites such as this.

Even if a person does have enough background, an older student faces obstacles. We constantly see where teachers will automatically go toward an amateurish "easy and fun" track, or they gear themselves toward interpretation of pieces at an advanced level, which the OP has run into. For the kind of background I'm reading here, the student needs to get the most fundamental basic things, including how to practice. This kind of thing is hard to find. If you don't know how to word it, then it's impossible. Even if you do, the teacher will assume the student will quit or do his own thing.

The first obstacle is knowing how to find that teacher, which means knowing what to ask and listen for, and how to present yourself. The second is to get accepted, and the third is to learn how to work in a new way to give it a chance. Obviously you had better be committed and have planned your time use out for the long haul and then follow through. But there is always that first one.

First of all, AnthKeys14, I understand your need to write a long introductory "essay" to explain your question. Part of it is seeking to be understood by others. Another part of it is exploring your own situation for your own understanding. Writing does that, sometimes!

You will find in Pianist Corner and the Adult Beginners Forum many people with stories similar to yours (mine included). Here's the thing that caught my attention:



My advice: go shopping!

You have seen enough years, methinks, to understand what it means to "take the long view." The shopping phase may take some time, but with great reward! Since you are willing to plunk down money for lessons, I would suggest making a shopping list of potential teachers, and interview them for the job by phone. Don't tell them you are interviewing them, just come up with a little introduction to your situation, and a few key questions, and go to work. Be up front about shopping for teachers, though. You will probably be able to tell after a brief time on the phone together if there is good chemistry that might set you forward. If so, ask to pay for a tryout lesson and see where it goes. You might end up with a succession of weeks of lessons with different teachers until you settle in to work with one.

What it takes to teach people who are "our age" is somewhat different than what it takes to teach people who are... younger. I'm sure you know what I mean by that. One of my PW friends who is "our age" recently found a teacher who is slightly younger than he, but who understood instantly what his goals were, recognized his commitment, dedication, ability and talent set against his already full life, and understood also that there were aspects of the relationship where he would need to be in the drivers seat, not she. In working with adult learners, negotiation of expectations and outcomes is an important element. Find the teacher who understands this and you may have found a gem.

Good luck!
--Andy

EDIT: keystring makes good points about wording your goals well before going shopping. But imho you've done a good job with that by writing your essays!

Anthony, great questions I've been pondering and putting to practical application with a wonderful British concert artist here in NYC, who also teaches.

I have a degree in performance but I'm an amateur who just loves to practice. I have a profession ("day job") and I try to practice at least 1 1/2 hours weekdays. Weekends, 4 to 6 hours a day. Maybe more, depending on daily-life demands.

My goal with this teacher was to get off a plateau, pianistically, that I was on. My interpretation of it was that it was strictly technical. Read that, "mental." He (my teacher) indulged me in this and encouraged 30 mins a day of Pischna and Dohnanyi. He supervised my practicing of it, to avoid injury via tension, etc.

It was the first step to moving off the plateau: yes, it does do marginal finger-strengthening, giving a feeling of more security, but through many Scarlatti sonatas, I realized the legendary "rotation" concept was under-developed in my playing. With strong fingers, scalar passages were STILL "lumpy."

Then, the insight came: you play everything, actually, with the arms, the back, ultimately the whole body. My teacher, who studied with Brendel, Weissenberg and Perahia, showed me one day, in one gesture, how you play: He said, "Circles!" (imitating Perahia in his lessons) as he rotated his arm/hand at a scale passage. Nothing is really linear at the keyboard, it's, well, "circular," with micro-movments of relaxed hand-molding over the topography of the keyboard. Every patch of notes has its topography and the pattern reveals itself with the totally-relaxed application of rotation/circular movements. Practiced, of course, so slowly that paint-drying seems exciting. He urged me, in the Scarlatti, to make the sonatas a series of ariosos. Taking time to shape as a singer does, respecting the trajectory of melodic lines that have, built-in, moments of expressive rubato just everywhere.

The very act of giving myself time eliminated fingery tension, brought the music to life and liberated me from the technical issues that dogged me.

In short, sir, get the best teacher money can buy and see your fingers as mere conduits for your entire body and, well, soul.

Good luck! (And forgive this long-winded post!)

p.s. We both live in the NYC metro area and, yes, there are innumerable piano teachers here and I went through four, very expensive, highly-regarded pianists who were total lunatics before I found the guy I study with. Forget the internet for finding a teacher here. You could spend the rest of your life interviewing them and still be at sea. I found the artist I work with by being totally impressed with his recordings. Found his website, learned he lived here and contacted his agent. Voila. I "auditioned" and he accepted me. He's not cheap, however, but worth every nickel I spend. I only have time for two lessons a month, which works perfectly for me. Besides, he's a generous, committed soul and my lessons are never shorter than 90 minutes.

If you go through one of these Manhattan Piano School places that are all over the island, you'll get trapped into a a payment plan and their schedule and the teaching, I've discovered, is rather indifferent. Yes, they can surely play and have great pedigrees, but, teaching is a gift. Not all artists can teach.

This is worth repeating, thank you for that.

I am not sure that your questions will help you until you address something I think may be even more difficult.


To do something at a particular level, you have to be willing/able to devote the time necessary to be at that level. If you want to compete with anyone in particular, who is also "at the top of their game," you have to be willing to practice more than them, to do more than them, to do whatever it takes to beat them. This is a mentality, which is completely separate from the questions you posed, and you either have this mentality or you do not.

I am not saying good/bad/anything other than to step back and evaluate whether you have this mindset or not, because that will tell you what you need to do.

There are dozens of teachers in the NY-NJ corridor who can help you perform at a professional level. I know several personally. But you have to face the above first, and decide what you want to do.

Here's the hardest part: if you decide that you don't actually want to put in the time (evidenced by what you do with your spare time, where "spare time" means every single waking second not spent doing something you have to do, like eat, sleep, and use the bathroom), then you should let go of the 'dream' because it is only a 'dream' and not actually a passion. Then, you go out and find your passion.

If you find you can make the time, and decide to put in the time, and decide to focus on this singularly with "no excuses", then we can answer the other questions and help you get where you need to be. But the first step has to be yours.

So, let me know, and then if you decide to move forward, I'm happy to help (as I'm sure everyone else is, too). If you decide to move sideways to a new passion, then I (honestly) applaud you and wish you the best of luck.

Hello Derulux:

Needless to say, I agreed with your reply immensely:

Although I am in my late forties, with the responsibilities and time commitments I already have in place, I feel that I can make and devote the time necessary to serve my own interest and passions... playing and performing.

For as I indicated, I had performed before but was never able to bring my self to the level needed to progress to truly professional caliber performance or above a "casuals/wedding" playing situation. And personally, that is something that has always "irked" me (for lack of a much stronger definition). If forum members such as yourself would like to assist me, then I am only too happy to receive that information with an open mind.

As far as passions go, I never had any other. Hobbies and interest, yes. But nothing I felt as strongly about as my need to play and perform. Unfortunately, I did put those needs on the back burner as I said, in an attempt to do what I thought was right at the time and follow another career path. But unfortunately, this has led to a very unfulfilled life. And as I get older, or see others doing what I'd love to be doing myself, this feeling is amplified.

I also do get a envious twinge when seeing a performer of the caliber, I wished I was. Although envy is not something I admire. So yes, to answer your questions, I would like to place the time and "do what it takes" to play to level I need to be at. Which is the "competition" mentality you mentioned.

As a matter of fact, one of our other forum members has provided me with the contact information for whom he describes as a wonderful teacher in New York. So I would like to speak with her and maybe try an initial lesson to see how things go. But any thoughts or recommendations you or any of the other forum members have would be welcome.

Thank You Again,
Anthony

Envy is not necessarily a bad thing.. it can drive you to get the things that you desire.

Thanks for the PM. I'll follow-up with you there.