Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner is there a european technique difference with hand position

Hello forum
I have asked this before and got no where

the question is hand position

I had a teacher I believe she was from Austria
but not sure definitely Ukranian

she had me hold my hand so that when the key was depressed my fingers were completely straight and vertical as if they were standing on the keys like posts.

at first it was pretty strange and uncomfortable

I have revisited this method again for the last few weeks
and I have to say my scales sound less clumsy more even more fluid
and overall it is a better sound

I am just curious has anyone else tried this or seen this method.
here is a video of me attempting to demonstrate

youtube video

Hello! The technique you speak of in which your fingers are vertical and straight looks a lot more tense...you move your wrists and hands a lot more and it seems like it may be wasting a lot of energy. I'd stick with curved fingers for the majority of pieces!

I don't think there is a benefit to the stand-up method. I recall this being posted on the teacher's forum earlier and I'm glad you have a video now to share to help explain it. Now seeing it, I think there's too much extraneous movement, meaning it's inefficient and will eventually break down. You claim to feel better playing with this (although I do not hear any difference between your A & B), and while that may in your mind lend it more weight, perhaps you would want to consider what it is that feels better. This is very important. I think the high wrists are not good as you eliminate any arm weight. However, because your "A" method may be flawed, you're siding with the "B" method right now since it may simply be eliminating that flaw, but in the long run is limiting in itself.

On a side note, how did you get your piano to get higher as you go down?? I was very distracted by that in the video trying to figure out what was going on LOL!

I am a scale lover, but there is a lot of different ways to work with the scales. The normal and the way you should play while playing a music piece is ofcourse with the fingers curved. However by playing it in other ways you can achieve different results.

F. ex: I often work with my fingers completely flat, and move my fingers slowly by lifting the arm, with the result of having a minimum of tension in my arms and fingers, then I transfer this relaxed mode to my normal scale playing, so I can play with less tension.

I just tested your teacher's way of playing scales, and what I found good about it, was that it helped me with having the finger right over the tangent before I pressed it down, and it was easier to put it precisely in the middle of the tagent, so if hitting accuratly and precisely is your goal, I guess this is a good excersise. However there is a gret tension in the hands, and the thumb is standing up in a horrid way (the secret behind good scales is a good relaxed thumb). If you feel comfortable with hitting precise I would recomend you to work with relaxation, and also play more than one octave at once to get a good flow.

As far a scale technique goes why would one play/practice/demonstrate only one octave unless one is a complete beginner? Kind of like demonstrating a trill by playing just two notes. The whole difficulty is about passing the thumb under both the third and fourth finger.

The suggestion from the Austrian teacher, if your demo is what was really suggested, looks completely absurd to me. No good pianist plays scales or anything else with fingers positioned like that.The only time one might play with a hand in that position is one when is forced to in passages where the two hands are playing "on top of each other" so one is forced to lift one hand very high to get it out of the way of the other hand.

Your verbal description of the fingers being completely straight and vertical also doesn't match what you did. It's possible the teacher meant the first joint of the finger in that position which sounds more like playing with very curved fingers

In my experience, there does seem to be a Russian style of technique exemplified by a high bridge and high fingertips that reach up in the air and then move downward as if to pull the note towards the palm. It looks almost like the motion a hand would make when the fingertips wave goodbye, but it is individual fingers that do the motion.

One of the Russian teacher's I met at the Victoria Conservatory said this is how she was taught at the Moscow Conservatory. To me, it looks like wasted motion but she plays every note with great beauty. Watching her play is like watching a finger ballet. I cannot make this style feel natural and I do not use it but it works beautifully for her.

Edit: I took a look at your video and I notice when you use the straight finger technique you are referring to, your shoulders tense up and your wrists are very high. I think the high wrists might invite injury and the tense shoulders will give a harsh sound.

I know the motion you're talking about. For some reason, I associate it in my mind with Horowitz. Don't know if he does it regularly, or if I'm just remembering a specific video, but he's definitely done it.

Watch some of the vids of Lisitsa. She often uses it on trills and I can't figure out how it would work. I don't think the "dive bomber" concept works very well.

Don't know how this would work as a global approach to all scale playing. For expressive purposes here and there, yes.

And, maduro, as another poster noticed when you play on the video with high fingertips your shoulders hike up. Careful. The Land of Tension is only fingersteps away!

Your comment about Lisitsa reminds me of a pianist I knew in college, a fellow student, very talented and accomplished. He played trills with vertical fingers. I'm sure his teacher at that time did not teach this technique; more likely he developed it on his own.

I have no expertise to share. I am in the first stages of relearning/learning. But I think I can trust some observations in the raw.

When you play in the old way, the sound is not as strong or solid, and I think one or two notes was weaker. When you do the new thing, the sound is strong and solid. In the new way, your whole arm mechanism is moving from fingertip to shoulder, while the older way it's mostly the fingers. Impression: the whole arm mechanism working seems the right direction - except that you don't know yet what to do with the rest of you, so these awkward things are going on. Maybe your teacher is setting this up, so that over time the whole mechanism will start working together. You may be only at the first stage of what your teacher has in mind.

I've been working with a teacher on physical playing for the first time part of this year. I was self-taught decades ago. When I played melody notes as opposed to chords, my hand was perfectly still and only my fingers moved, and those fingers are naturally quite curved. I had difficulty playing fast, I cramped, got numbness, had a weak sound - it wasn't good. Among the things we're doing based on what my teacher is seeing and how I'm responding:
- getting movement in all the joints
- for now, exaggerated movement, like when a little kid draws using his whole arm using fat crayons, and later on what's left are micro-motions. This is to unlock what is locked up, and teach the body how it can move
- involving movement of the hand even when playing single notes (nothing gets locked up)
- aiming toward straighter fingers because mine are so curved normally that this balances it out.

Some of the principles are that if it sounds better, feels better, and starts to look right, then it probably is right. Anyhow, seeing this video reminded me of some of what I'm doing. We each have our individual weaknesses, and we don't know what your teacher's larger plan is.

I agree with the last poster and I am glad that some people stepped forward and have seen this method before.

I think one person says No good piano player would play scales like this.
why do people say such things.
when I stated that a piano teacher (a graduate student at Aaron copland conservatory she was a performance major) taught me the method really taught me not just demonstrated it was some years ago and I left it alone for many years so I am a little clumsy with it now but
she had to at least be good. So glad to hear about other great players who have utilized this technique
so now we know that there are a few good piano players out there who do it.

I didn't say this before but the only other time I saw this method used was by a young guy in sam ash he had a Ukrainian teacher also and he played with the fingers standing straight

and I have to say he played the most beautiful scales.

I don't have a teacher now and I am sure the hiking of the shoulders was because of my lack of familiarity with the method.
I will make sure to keep an eye on extraneous motions. thanks for pointing that stuff out

apart from the bone headed comments there are a lot of helpful advice and observations presented on this forum
I think it is cool to have a community of player willing to help

for the next few weeks

I will work on staying relaxed but I am going to stick to this method for a while

for a few reasons
one I do notice a difference I don't think it is in my mind
I notice however on the video there seems to be little difference

two as was said be a few posters it does work and sound great
when done right

three I love doing things that are rare and different
especially when they work

four
I have done the more normal method all my playing life and my scales are mediocre at best.

time to make a change stupidity is doing the same things and expecting different results right?

it wont hurt to give this method a few months of my time

Thanks to everyone for sharing

If you think the method with vertical fingers is appropriate for scales, try and find a YouTube recording of a world class pianist who plays this way and post the recording. There are a few situations where a small number of pianists play with a very high wrist and somewhat vertical fingers, but I don't think you'll find a single example when they're playing scales that way.

You also need to be very careful of how you describe this idea. There is astronomical difference between suggesting that the first joint vs. the first and second joints vs. the entire finger(all three joints) are vertical. The last one, which seems to be the one you're advocating and demonstrate before you play the scales, is virtually unheard of in correct scale playing IMO.

I'm surprised any posters have thought an approach with the entire finger vertical might be reasonable. My guess is the teacher you mentioned suggested holding just the first joint of your finger vertical. I don't know if this is a particularly desirable but at least it's possible to play scales this way and usually would be called playing with very curved fingers.

the fact that you think I didn't understand the lesson is kind of interesting.
maybe you think I am not smart enough to understand.

I had more than a few lessons and she clearly had me have all five fingers completely straight. we both were at Aaron copland school of music which is a top shelf conservatory
she was a performance major getting her masters
I was a first semester theory student


the fact that it doesent make sense to you doesent mean it is a useless or incorrect method.
all I can say is her scales sounded
awesome. and I was quite lucid during our lessons and yea all of the fingers stood like posts straight up.

I have only seen it done one other time
but both times the scales sounded great.
I am not sure that me spending hours searching for someone else who played scales like this is worth the effort.

This is how she instructed me to play scales
I wasn't with her long and I think I will give another crack at it.

I don't think your ignorance or a better way to say it your lack of understanding to the purpose discredits the method
it just means you and apparently not many people know about it or know its purpose
but there are many roads less travelled that are the better road.



The fact that we are still here talking about says that there is something to it
otherwise no one would bother.

I don't think a good technique can be properly taught in a short period of time. Perhaps you understand the basics that she was able to get through, but did she give you her stamp of approval on how you are playing now?

Sometimes a teacher will have a student do some exaggerated technique in order to address a particular issue or introduce a particular concept of playing. Then they will add to that technique over time until it arrives at the place where there is freedom and consistency in the playing.

Obviously there are tension issues in both ways of your playing, and the best way to address them is with a teacher. I think it *is* worthwhile trying to find another teacher who teaches this method so that you can continue and really give the technique a good chance, rather than just keep doing what you're doing and hope that it will get better that way.

But if any great pianists use this method it should be easy to find many examples quickly. Do you think this teacher is privy to some secret method of playing scales that hasn't been tried before? If this method is from the Russian school of piano playing then it should be obvious by looking at any of the thousands of YouTube videos of the great Russian pianists.

Problems (I see) with playing with vertical fingers and high wrist:

1. You aren't playing with the most sensitive part of the finger meaning it will be harder to control the sound.

2. Such a high wrist means to play each note you need more effort and a bigger movement meaning when you it will be harder to play very fast.

3. Because you lose the bridge shape of the hand, that brings several disadvantages such as it makes it harder to control the evenness of the scale.

If one takes the OP's description literally, i.e. completely straight and completely vertical fingers, the only way to move the key down is by dropping the hand on every note. Any movement of just the finger would be parallel to the ground. So I think this description makes playing almost anything except an isolated chord or note not just difficult but impossible. And it does not correctly describe what he shows in the second video which is playing with an extremely high wrist and part of the finger in a somewhat vertical postiion.

There is a difference between playing with perfectly straight fingers in a completely vertical position and playing with one or two joints fairly straight. So, for starters I think the OP needs a far different description of the playing in the second video.

But even with a more accurate description I don't think there exists a YouTube video with a good pianist playing scales with the hand position shown in the second video.

If you saw only somewhat straight fingers then I demonstrated incorrectly
if my wrists were too high that is because I was playing the scales so incorrectly
the wrist is high but it also lowers in a fluid up and down motion

I will revisit this in a few weeks

I have every confidence in this technique.

every confidence

The wrist only moves sideways when the hand changes positions not up and down with each individual note.