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I'll try to get at it tonight.

Perceived as shifting tonality? Oh no it's not -- at least not by me .

In all seriousness, people who can hear tonality don't perceive being in a new key until there's a cadence? Even if the notes from that key are played for measures and measures and measures on end, people who hear really just feel like things are shifting and they have no suspicions or expectations about where it's going to end up -- indeed, where it already is --, in the new key?

But by contrast they can tell within three beats of the beginning of a piece what key it's in? Why aren't they suspending judgment there as well and supposing "well this sounds like we'd expect a tonic at this pitch, but, oh, no, can't be sure until I hear a cadence?"

I'm confused.

I deliberately used the word perceived so that it could be taken either as heard or as seen in the score - so much for my attempt at diplomacy!

"In all seriousness, people who can hear tonality don't perceive being in a new key until there's a cadence?"
No, I can hear that I'm not in tonic but I can't say the new key is established until there's a cadence - exactly the same as when reading a score except that in a score I can clearly see what key the music is moving to/through.

Ok, what does a key being "established" mean?

Is it just a definition? Something like, "when a phrase cadences in a new key, and the next phrase starts in that key, we say the key is 'mumblefrotz'.". (Replace 'mumblefrotz' with any other collection of syllables of your choice, like 'whizzty-gig' or 'diddlecue' or 'established'.)

Or does it correspond to some psychological or aural phenemon? Something like, "people who can hear this kind of thing have an up-in-the-air or incomplete feeling during the preceding measures, and only have a complete feeling when they hear the cadence"? But then how is that different from hearing a cadence at the end of any phrase that stays in the same key?

Or does it mean something like "For people who can hear this kind of thing, they have a memory of the old tonic, and although they can hear a difference in key, they don't feel satisfied until they hear the new tonic in a definitive way introduced by a cadence?"

Or something else yet again?

Maybe it's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't hear it. Like trying to explain a spoon falling off the table to someone deaf:

Me: "How did you know it fell on the floor?"

You: "I heard it."

Me: "Oh, OK, I can't hear it, and if I'm not looking I won't know anything happened, but if I'm looking and see it vanish off the table, I'll know to say it fell on the floor."

(spoon falls in someone's lap)

Me: "That spoon just fell on the floor!"

You: "No, it fell in someone's lap."

Me: "How do you know?"

You: "Because it sounded different."

Me: "I give up. I can see the spoon vanish but I'm never going to be able to figure out when I'm supposed to say it fell on the floor and when I'm supposed to say it fell in someone's lap."

Listened to it. Sounded like two movements to me, with the first movement 6 minutes long.

Heard interesting effects in places which I think were being achieved through harmony/shifting tonality.

Couldn't identify exposition/development/recapitulation in first movement. If it really is six minutes long, I wasn't prepared to be listening over such a long timescale. If it's shorter, I still didn't detect them.

I liked how it sounded, and how it was played. It's not stop-you-in-your-tracks like a Beethoven sonata, but it's lively, and orderly, and has some interesting and surprising sounds that I liked.

Something that I notice sometimes is that the music will be going along, and then all of a sudden it will sound higher. I don't mean specific notes; I mean as an overall effect it sounds higher. I wonder if what I'm hearing is the key change to the dominant.

Hmmm!
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This, being a statement, would be read with a flat inflection but being a question should be read with a rising inflection at the end so you need to get to the end of the sentence to confirm whether or not you'll need to prepare a response. Won't you?

Some sentences read like statements all the way through and at the very turn out to be questions, don't they?

Isn't it the way, though, that some questions make it clear at the ouset that it's a question?

This is how I hear music. It's not until I get to the end of the phrase/section that I know if there's a 'rising inflection' at the end and if there is then I can expect another, balancing phrase, to complete the 'paragpraph'. So it's important to me to hear or feel the tonality at the start and compare it to the tonality I hear at the end. It tells me whether I'm listening to a question or a statement.

Isn't it nice when the question starts with the verb-subject order? You know right away it's a question. It's not as easy when the question part comes right at the end, is it?

And sometimes when you get a long line that you aren't sure about one way or the other because the question part comes right at the end, and after the main statement, like my opening paragraph, and it leaves you in doubt, doesn't it? Did it end with a rising inflection on the 'won't you' (requiring a yes/no response) or a falling inflection (not requiring a response or at least nothing more than simple agreement). If it's the former is the first sentence part of the question? Or is it a statement with a short question at the end? And if it's the latter is it really a question?

And even then, the question may turn out to be rhetorical and even though it's phrased as a question it's really a statement. Is it a long statement with a short question added afterwards? Or is it one long question, broken into two sentences?

So, sometimes we need to read the next sentence to be sure whether we've heard a question or a statement. Are we asking questions? Or just speaking quizzically?

A transition from tonic to dominant is, for me, a rising inflection. I won't be satisfied until I've heard the answer by way of a return to tonic. A resounding ii-V-I cadence at the end of the exposition may have an air finality, grammatically, but if it's in the dominant it is simply a large question mark. I know the question has finished but I still need the answer.
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In Sonatina #1, for example, the exposition ends in G major, the dominant, with a final cadence. The development begins also in G major and so establishes the key - but it's not a new tonic - it's a new key.

In Sonatina #6 the bridge passage, M16, introduces G# suggesting A major and cadences with (a rootless) B7-E major - an imperfect cadence in A (it's not a final cadence in E because the E hasn't risen from D# nor fallen from F#). The second subject then begins in A so for me, A is now established as a new key.

Jeff, I hope you're not spending more than six minutes on any of your analyses!!

That's what I'm wondering, too! How can you enjoy music if you can't hear this stuff? Are you expecting the change to dominant to sound like the change from woodwind to brass? Can you tell a sigh (a falling semitone) from a question (a rising fifth)?

Can you hear this stuff and just not recognise that's what it is?

Caesar: "We're in the dominant now."
Brutus: "What? I heard no fanfare, no drum roll! All I got was this little inflection!"

Thanks for mentioning. I did in fact slow down somewhat. As it turns out, I am having a bit of an issue with the spoon as well.

Richard, how did you think up your disquisition on questions? That's brilliant! I should thank you profusely for it, shouldn't I? Yes, I should! [coda:] Thank you!

In all seriousness, that was very helpful to me.

It suggests listening to music and seeing if I hear a sense of question and/or answer, or openness and closedness. I don't know if I will or not, but it sure beats trying to listen for tonics and dominants and key changes. Anyway, it will be an interesting experiment.

As for enjoying music, I don't know. Black and white movies can be very enjoyable. Maybe sometimes there are parts I'm missing -- like watching The Wizard of Oz in black and white, you can get most of it, but there's a little extra ooomph when Dorothy opens the door of the house and a brilliantly coloured Oz is revealed. So I feel sometimes like that about listening to sonata form, that I'm missing that little extra oomph of "away from home" and "back to home". But there's still lots to enjoy.

I'm not sure if I can hear a falling semitone as a sigh or a rising fifth as a question. I can distinguish falling vs. rising, and I may catch the gist, but I won't be able to name what I've heard. I'm letting go of thinking the names are important. I think I can hear sighing easier than questions though. I think a rising fifth just sounds to me like "up, by a rather large amount." And I can only hear this rising rather large interval if played as a melodic interval; I won't hear it if it's implied through change of tonic, because I can't hear what a tonic is. I suppose it's possible I'm hearing it and don't know what it is, but I don't know how to get out of that state.

But I can hear in music "doing straightforward things with the sound" vs. "doing surprising things with the sound that catch my attention". So that's good enough for me; I'm determined to pay attention to what I can hear and not worry so much about these mysterious other things other people can hear.

In recent choir rehearsals I've been applying this principle (of appreciating what I can do and not beating myself up for what I think I should be able to do) to singing. I can't sightsing a line by stringing together intervals, the way some people think I should learn to do, but I can sing it in an approximate sort of way by some other means that I can't name (and it's not by moveable do solfege either). And once I can learn it, I can sing it well. So that's good. And my only challenge is pitches; I'm rock solid on sight-singing rhythm (with the one exception of singing three triplet quarter notes in the space of one half note). But even that last, I don't beat myself up over. I just think that's a hard thing, that I've very rarely done so I haven't practiced it, and someday maybe I'll work on ways to learn to do that better.

Just chiming in here to offer a tidbit if it helps at all, PS88. I certainly can't offer much in your -- miles ahead of me -- analysis, and of course will leave that all to Richard, while I also learn from.

Is what you are referring to, like two beat triplets? If so, concur, it is a tricky one to get the hang of. My Father was a teacher, and I remember him spending a relentless amount of time with students trying to get this right. They would either play the first notes on the beat and off beat, or the last two. Never, evenly spacing them across the beats. That is, until alas, they got the hang of it. Finally, relief from all the screaming.

BEAUTIFUL he would shout ... now, do it again ...

This is the one place I would say, don't try to count it. Rather, hear it and feel it. It will come, and when you come across it again, go back to the other place where you have it right and it will come back again.

Not sure if this helps, or if this was even the challenge. But this is one I can actually handle pretty well now after having endured a half lifetime of agony.

Greener, yes, two beat triplets is exactly what I have trouble with.

I think the last time we had something like that in chorus I started silently counting "1 2 3" inside each quarter note a few measures in advance, and then when the two beat triplet came up I could switch from counting "ONE two three FOUR five six" for two quarter notes to "ONE two THREE four FIVE six" for three triplet quarter notes in the same amount of time. Fortunately for me the leadup measures weren't in sixteenth notes: that would have completely messed up my quick 123 counting, as it would struggle against the quick 1234 of the sixteenths, and as we saw earlier, I can't do 3 against 4 yet.

I will see if I can feel it instead the next time it comes up. I just feel so lost when just trying to feel these, though, and I like the security of the precise numbers. Oh dear, this feels like it might be a terrifying insight into my inner psyche! I can see by the example of "what if the leadup was in sixteenth notes" that I'll need to get more comfortable with the by-feel method, though. Bah. Humbug.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. It's reassuring to know that I'm normal in finding it hard, and to know that progress can be made, and to know what kind of effort that progress might entail.

Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito

OK, I have had a better look (listen) to development now. It was a lot of work just for this ... so, hope I am somewhat on track;

Although this doesn't look remotely close on paper, I believe M39 - half of M42 are coming from M1-M4.

Similarly, M45-M48 starts out this way again, but M48 branches off to new stuff.

M52 sounds like it is coming from exposition as well. Perhaps M7.

Also, I think the pattern from the close of the exposition (M37) is what is being frequented throughout what I have called the new section (above.)

Edit: Oh yeah, the keys

How about ...

Passing through, visiting, shifting but not committing to;

G minor
G major
A major

I don't have anything to add. I have a question though:

Can you explain how you see this. You did better than I did since I didn't find anything at all.

Speaking personally, I'd say it's a "hm, that doesn't seem to belong there. I wonder if it's going to drift off somewhere else?" kind of a thing. Impressions. Nothing solid. A bit like when you listened to a movement back when some time and felt it was different in some way, and it had gone from major to minor. Hints of things that add up after a while.

I was looking at some piece and suddenly this F starts drumming in, intruding, and disappearing again. Then it came more and more often, until suddenly a bit later the piece moved into F major. It's like seeing a rare robin pop up way too early, and you notice it because it shouldn't be there yet. But at some point the lawn is full of robins, grass is sprouting, tulips are up and it's definitely spring.

If this is too far adrift, blame the late hour.

I don't think that I hear it that way. It would also be too late for me, because by the time I'm oriented to what the key is and able to follow the music, it's already moved to a new key. I'd always be one step behind.

Usually the key is established early on. Often there are lots of V-I-V-I or maybe I I6 I or other ways of hovering around that I, right at the beginning. We hear so much of that I key that we concentrate on that tonality.

Sonatina No. 6, Allegro con spirito

This fabulous little work is studded with very Mozartean touches.

We begin with a two bar phrase that is obviously full of the joys of spring with the descending octave at the close preceded by a delightful leap from a grace note an octave below. Barely able to contain itself in M2-3 a new figure in M5-6 tells of expected delights before the air of contentment in M7-8.

M9 starts three measures of excitement, again followed by the calming voice of M7-8. We are in D Major throughout.

We enter the bridge passage in M16 with the M5 figure and some more scurrying up to the brief contraction of the first two measures in the middle of M20 and twice in M21 before the emphatic knocks in the middle of M22 on E major, the dominant of the dominant.

The second subject begins at the end of M22 with a sweetly disguised variation(*) of M1-2 and M30 introduces a subtle three note sequence on F#-G-A hidden in repeated and broken thirds. This section leads up to another new figure in M37 before the final dominant cadence in M38.

The development begins with a "new figure", a two measure theme drawn together from the conglomeration of M1-2, M7-8 and the three note sequence F#-G-A in M30. It is played over an A pedal but repeated a tone higher over the same A pedal increasing the tension and building suspense. It ends with cascading thirds leading to a repeat a fourth higher and this time leads to a delightful play on the figure from M37 in a chromatic descent to another reminder of the F#-G-A sequence rising over a dominant A pedal to B and hanging on C# before the recapitulation returns on D.


Where is G minor?

We end the exposition in A major and we start in M38 with an A pedal but there are no G's to show whether they're sharp or natural. Are we still in A here or back to tonic on the dominant? The next phrase has a ntural G suggesting the later and M44 confirms it.

M48 starts getting interesting. I get this:

M48 D7 B7 (rootless) closing to
M49 Em A7 (rootless) closing to
M50 D F#7 closing to
M51 Bm D7 closing to
M52 G D7 G D closing to
M53 G A7 D E7 closing to
M54 A (dominant prep.)
M55 A
M56 A7


In only six works Clementi has taken us to the point where anyone capable of a good rendition of this sonatina is well able to begin tackling the full scale works by Mozart and Haydn and not far from those of Beethoven and Schubert.

(*)I've spent all morning trying to link to an image on Box.com. Alas, I'm short on technology skills.

We're not talking about establishing the tonic here but establishing a new key. How do you know when a new key has been established? As soon as the accidental has been introduced? Or when all the harmonies are diatonic to the new key but not to the tonic key? Or once you've reached a cadence? How do you know when the new key has been established and is not just being visited or passed through?

You can't apply the new key to what you've heard in the past and you sure can't predict what you're about to hear so you can only apply the new key information to what you are hearing right now and that must always be in relation to the tonic (however you hear or perceive that relationship - and you must perceive that relationship, why else would 300 years of tonal music always have finished on the tonic?) unless the modulations have gone so far you no longer remember what the tonic is.

If a new key is to be established then you must at least end a phrase in that key if not start another in it, no? How do you determine establishment otherwise?

This look tenuous at best but I get it fully. My own analysis shows that I see it as an amalgam of M1-2, M7-8, and M30-31.

I could write whole piece on these eight bars. I know I could because I did just that during my analysis.