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Geezus you guys lighten up ok? We are just trying to find out the facts about this piano so that some of us can make a purchase decision. There are going to be all kinds of opinions but there is no need for any of it to get personal. Do you chew someone's head off for liking strawberry ice cream if you personally don't?
I didn't mean to derail your thread, Acca. I was sticking to the discussion until that last post. So I apologise for that. I'll apologise to 36251 for that last crack too. Sorry 36251.
I found it interesting that one of them (Nicholas Pike) listened to the decay on the AG and concluded that there was no looping happening, yet it's obvious from spectral analysis that there is. Just goes to show, perception is never 100% accurate. But at the end of the day, if you think it sounds right to you, then it is right for you. (But others can still disagree, just like with any other subjective preferences.)
Yeah, you know, looping isn't that easy for some people to hear. I, for example, can't really hear looping. I feel like I can very easily tell the difference between a crap sample and a good one, but as far as distinguishing a well-done looped sample from an unlooped one, I basically take dewster's word for it. In fact, I think I'm an anomaly in that I prefer a looped Yamaha decay to a synthesized SuperNatural (Roland) one. Different people are sensitive to different things, I guess.
When I was demoing the AG's in person I was actually reasonably happy with their sound. It might be the best onboard sound I've heard anywhere. I don't consider it up with VST's (which is where it could and one could argue should be) but in my opinion it's by no means poor.
My irritation is only with those who knit pick on issues they will never encounter in their playing. There are so many silent profiles that it is impossible to give any opinion relative weight.
But that is the joy of the internet ... and on that note, a Christmas carol from Tom Lehrer ...
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
gvfarns: Regarding being able to "hear looping", note that you don't need to hear the detail of the loop in order to hear that the sound "is looped". If you notice that the timbre becomes sort of unnaturally static at a certain time after playing that note, but you can't hear any bothersome "warble", you are still hearing that the sound "is looped".
If the evolution of the note has a natural warble right from the outset (e.g due to a bit of unison detuning), and the loop is able to retain that same warble (but not the overall gradual mellowing of the timbre), that can be quite an acceptable outcome - not terribly bothersome at all, IMHO.
If OTOH the loop warble is obvious, and there was no such warble before the loop, that's a big no-no IMHO.
It totally depends on the type of music you play, Dave. I have been working on some classical pieces that involve rapid, undamped repeats. I wouldn't want to try practising that on the AG. Even Cyprien Katsaris wasn't able to do rapid repeats very well when he was using two hands! That means the piano struggles in that department. On the other hand, when I play modern stuff and jazz, the AG is just fine. So it's horses for courses really. I suspect the reason you are so happy with your AG and unaffected by its shortcomings is because you play a certain style of music/technique that works well with it. If they had the repeat thing under control, I would definitely consider one for late night practice. I still think they are really slack on the tone quality too though. Sustain is poor, loops are audible. They could have invested much more into the sample size. Resonance is not great either. I'm sure each successive AG release will address one or more of these issues, but the real AG I'd like to own is still a few more generations away, I suspect.
+1 The AG initially feels great to play on, once you've adjusted to its rather heavy action, but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges. And its key action makes classical music that requires very fast and rapid key action and repeated notes (like Ravel's Gaspard and Alborada del gracioso and Scarlatti's Kk141 and some Liszt) impossible to execute properly at anything approaching decent tempi.
+1 The AG initially feels great to play on, once you've adjusted to its rather heavy action, but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges. And its key action makes classical music that requires very fast and rapid key action and repeated notes (like Ravel's Gaspard and Alborada del gracioso and Scarlatti's Kk141 and some Liszt) impossible to execute properly at anything approaching decent tempi.
I suspect the repeat speed issue on the AG is mostly to do with the sensor design. If they got the sensors worked out, it probably could do true rapid repeats. I say that because if it is a true Yamaha grand action with double escapement, there is no reason why it couldn't. I'm sure any of you AG owners could confirm that the action itself can do it by simply turning off the power and doing some really fast repeats without releasing the key more than 1/2 of its travel. If you can hear the hammers doing these repeats, then it's onto the sensors for the source of the problem.
It seems to me that to get the most out of a real acoustic action, the best solution would be to have pressure sensitive pads that the hammers hit. I'm sure there are associated difficulties and possibly reliability issues with this sort of technology, but I think that is the only way to truly get the control that a real action can get, with regard to repeats. This whole triple sensor thing still seems troublesome with regard to trying to couple it to a mechanical double-escapement action which works on a different principle.
If they could get the pressure sensitive pad thing going, it would be pretty easy to get the samples to trigger rapidly - all you would have to do is make sure there is no damping going on with these rapid repeats. For this to happen, there would still need to be some key position sensors so that it can mimic the dampers being on or off, or partially on. It's still a pretty big challenge. I think they will could there eventually with the AGs but they are still a few generations away. The repeats thing will only be solved if the demand from customers is there however, and going by the various threads on PW, I'm not sure it is. Most AG owners seem unconcerned with the repeating behaviour of their AG. It's hard to quantify whether more many more people would have bought an AG if this had been addressed. I am certainly one person who might consider it if it had been addressed - provided they also improved the resonance and sample size alongside it. They really need to move on to unlooped full-length samples to really make it for me - just like the current PC piano VSTs.
We'll see where it goes in the next 5 years or so. I certainly haven't given up on the AG concept eventually getting to the point where I might buy one. I hope it does.
It seems to me that to get the most out of a real acoustic action, the best solution would be to have pressure sensitive pads that the hammers hit.
If I'm not mistaken, the only digital piano on the planet that uses pressure sensors is this thing. And it's not even out of the prototype stage yet. So as much as I'd love to see this technology introduced in more affordable models, I don't think it's gonna happen in our lifetime
Last edited by Kos; 12/28/1204:45 AM.
"There is nothing to piano playing besides producing the appropriate velocities on the appropriate keys at the appropriate time" (c) qvfarns
None of it rang true to me - comparing AGs to a relationship with a woman...please.
Well, you know, not all pianos are very responsive. Sometimes they are downright sluggish or don't have a lot of tonal color. And not all pianos can do rapid repeats, especially if the player is only mediocre. So...
The same can be said of some women - perhaps that's what he was driving at
I think it's striking how much better Yamaha could have done if only they had paired the action with a couple of really good (and huge) sample sets with more depth and sparkle.
but you soon realize that its sound engine is no different to that of other Yamaha CLPs, with similarly restricted timbral, tonal and dynamic ranges.
Completely wrong. The sound engine is nothing like the Clavinovas.
What hasn't been discussed here is the technique Yamaha used to sample the AG. I'll differ to the experts here who can hear samples that have been stretched, but the method of sampling each note at four different spots and then having those samples reproduced by individual amps and speakers with low distortion must add to the sound of the AG. Either I've drank the punch or I do notice this as an improvement over other DP's. I never use headphones, so I'm always experiencing this and I think it's pretty damn good. That coupled with perfect tuning, and its action, has given me great inspiration and longer sessions when I practice.
I'm also saving at least $250 in tuning costs each year and I don't sweat the low humidity I can't control in the winter even with a humidifier. (I used to worry to much in winter, when I owned my Steinway.) I also have taken back some space in my small house, since the N2 has a smaller footprint.
Sure, it's far from perfect and agree with owners who have lived with their AG everyday and still find fault. I do still question the comments of those naysayers who only gave the AG a few hours in a music store and think they are now qualified on the subject.
What hasn't been discussed here is the technique Yamaha used to sample the AG. I'll differ to the experts here who can hear samples that have been stretched, but the method of sampling each note at four different spots and then having those samples reproduced by individual amps and speakers with low distortion must add to the sound of the AG. Either I've drank the punch or I do notice this as an improvement over other DP's. I never use headphones, so I'm always experiencing this and I think it's pretty damn good. That coupled with perfect tuning, and its action, has given me great inspiration and longer sessions when I practice.
I'm also saving at least $250 in tuning costs each year and I don't sweat the low humidity I can't control in the winter even with a humidifier. (I used to worry to much in winter, when I owned my Steinway.) I also have taken back some space in my small house, since the N2 has a smaller footprint.
Sure, it's far from perfect and agree with owners who have lived with their AG everyday and still find fault. I do still question the comments of those naysayers who only gave the AG a few hours in a music store and think they are now qualified on the subject.
I mentioned several times before that I believe the only way to hear any DP's inherent sound picture is to use your own headphones, not the DP's speakers, and that's the way I tested all DPs when looking for my own. The N3 sounds better than the N1 because of its great speaker system, and certainly miles better than any other Yamaha DP - again because of its speakers. It's only when you use your own headphones that you realize that it sounds no different to the CLPs, and that's when playing one immediately after the other. Of course, that's just my opinion from several repeated playings in the DP store over the past two years or so.
But if you only use the AG using its speakers, then you'll likely think the extra cost is worth it. From my experience, many DPs from several companies would benefit from better speakers, but of course there's the cost and bulk factor involved......
