Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Frustrated with teaching adults!

I've been following this thread and I am very baffled to the types of adult students described here. Having said that I do happen to fall into that category of adult student - but I am an undergraduate music major so I suppose it's different.

Pianogirl, I started teaching a few adult students years ago. They were friends of mine and they respected me. They were friends, so they had seen me perform and get places in competitions, they were recipients of the news when I found out I made it into a good music school. Everything that I said was seen as gospel, they never questioned the importance of technique, or the importance of theory... I don't mind people questioning things but sometimes it can be unnerving when a ten year old throws a tantrum over me assigning technical work.

The thing is, with adults they do have their excuses, they have personal issues and busy lives to attend to, sure they signed up for lessons and should have bared in mind that it takes hard work and practice to learn an instrument but maybe it would help if you listened to their excuses. Listening is a powerful thing - sometimes this gives you a peep into their world and you might be able to give them some insight and potentially assist them in fixing their problem related to their lack of practice.

Besides this, I've noticed adults, even in my experience as an adult learner I can get frustrated easily. I've experienced this, I have a lot of empathy for people who want to be good at something quickly but aren't. I remember the time I tried to draw, and what I ended up drawing was something that looked like Van Gogh gone wrong. I was very frustrated because I wanted to be as good as my visual artist friend. Adults can be very judgmental of their mistakes, they might come to expect too much and they might get flustered in the process when they can't get it right.


For the student that seems disinterested - maybe you could ask her if everything is ok - tell her she looks very agitated, maybe you'd be surprised by her answer.

I am curious about the boy in this above video link. Can anyone explain how a kid of his age can be so good?

That is no ordinary kid. That kid is famous in Hong Kong and around the world as being a prodigy, he'll probably grow to be the next Lang Lang. Look at it this way I live in the UK and I've heard of him.

But poking around his other videos and listening to what they say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt8hBeu8MBY

He's been taught by a piano master I can't quite hear the name, he started at 3 1/2 years old* and has been playing for 2 years. The piano and violin teaching market in HK is SUPER competitive. They will put out pass rates and make massive promises and keep them as the teaching style is harsh.

*I can't tell which age convention they are using, so he might have started at 2 years old. My dad counts Chinese age as you are 1 when you are born. Mother counts me as 0 when I am born.


Shame, undermining, the cane (yes you read that right caning), are all completely valid tactics to use as a teacher.

Teachers will also filter. So if they get a lousy slow learning student like me even if the money is good. They will dump you as it affects their own results. When I mush something up, I laugh about it and my teacher says never mind have another go, my cousin who gave up was made to feel worthless and usless when she mushed up a piece.

heck when I go to HK and play for fun in the music shops people bloody judge me and tell me I'm rubbish...

Secondly he is Chinese.

Chinese are legendary for tiger parenting, i.e. western children get pushed sometimes. Chinese tiger parenting is horrendous. That kid will have been made to play until his fingers bleed and then TOLD, TOLD not asked TOLD to keep on playing and pushed constantly.

By parents, teachers, and peers.

I split my finger, I'll slack off for a day or two while it heals.

Have a look on youtube of eagle father

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idcNmm6B-Qw

There is no use to watching kids and wondering why they are as good as they are. That particular boy probably has unusual talent and has been guided since he was very young. We're not 5 so this isn't useful. Instead, watch people who are playing well, and see what it is they are doing to make their music sound good. What are they doing physically. What decisions are they making: louder, pause, longer note - and why. What can you learn? Does it give you any questions to ask your teacher? And also watch and listen simply in order to enjoy good playing.

That is cruel. It is also cruel to make a kid of that age play piano like that. Yes the kid is good but at the cost of his childhood? Some people do not deserve to have children.

TLT, thank you for your post.

The definition of a beginner is somebody who doesn't know things yet and makes mistakes. That includes doing stupid things. If that were not so, why go to a teacher?

It has taken me until Grade 3 level to undestand that being a good pianist means alot of hard work and graft. It will not happen by magic overnight.

Maybe by the time I retire I will be an accomplished pianist (that will mean I will have had 20 years of practice).

This essay by Matt Harre seems relevant to this discussion:

Freeing the Fossils

That is something that surprised me too when I first came on this forum. It wasn't just about adults though. The fact that my child, who preceded me as he entered his teens, did his assignments and came to lessons prepared, apparently is unusual. I am thinking that if there is a problem, that it is not just with adults. Kids will have a parent nagging them, and if the parent doesn't support the teacher's efforts, then the teacher may have a problem with the kids and the parents.

Thanks

OT, but this thread is my first encounter with this usage of "graft" to mean toil. Is this British idiom? (Here in the US graft means something different.)

Same for me.
Webster says the 'work' sense of graft is chiefly British. Interesting that the first definition is the horticultural one and the more sinister one is later down the list.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/graft

You're welcome.

I'm coming in late to this conversation, and haven't quite had time to read through it all first. So hopefully what I have to say isn't a repeat.

Just a couple of thoughts:

-The OP may not be a good match for this student. If this is the case, then the teacher should initiate a conversation about this with the student and have a list of alternative teachers who take adults that she could go to.

-The OP needs to understand that a part of teaching adults has to do with overcoming resistance to learning and motivation that often are quite different than the same issues in children. This kind of thing is not for everyone, and if the OP is not interested in learning these techniques and being patient, then perhaps it's best they stick to teaching children only.

I've encountered this same issue with many of my adult students. Some persist and overcome it, others realize the work and quit. I usually let them decide that it's not working, rather than me rejecting them and possibly making it worse if they ever decide to study in the future. The ones that do overcome their own perfectionism and defeatist mentality tend to stick around for a long time. There are seasons when they don't practice and lack motivation, just like we get too, and it's my job to help them understand that it's OK when that happens, but to get right back on that horse.

And.... I was right. She just quit - after taking for exactly 6 months. Good riddance!

I'd just like to point out that we're free to stop taking on adults/drop the ones that are too annoying. It's a free world and no one forces me to teach!

Pianogirl, glad you have a resolution!

I'm not sure if OP ever said if she talked to the student or tried to see what was going on. Six months is a long time when you're a beginner.

I do have to say, my teacher just dove right into Alfred's and some theory when we started lessons. She has a "master plan" that has worked for her all these years...and I'm okay with it! But, I still have to squeeze in questions here and there.

I'm sorry to be coming into the conversation so late. I got busy a few days ago and could only lurk and read. so I hope this is still of interest.

I have a very different approach to teaching adult beginners. Because of the focus of my studio, I get very few of them. I studied in France for a few years, and the experience really changed my perspective about the philosophical priorities of teaching beginners, and adults in particular.

Adults require quite a different approach than kids intellectually. Since they have a much greater intellectual capacity and have a lot of experience in the world, they are easily and quickly bored by the typical adult "method" used in this country.

So when I got back from France, I decided to reorder the whole thing. I put together rhythm and note reading exercises that I'd used in college, and from Paul Hindemeth's method with my own twist. I included 4 chapters from Aaron Copland's books, "what to Listen for in Music" as a basis for talking about harmony and form. And I also compiled several chapters on music history and notable musicians from Will and Ariel Durant's histories of Western Europe, so they'd also get some idea about how common practice tonality eveolved. This became my theoretical method for teaching beginners.

When beginners over the age of 12 come for an interview, I tell them very clearly that they will not be working at the instrument for a few months. First, they will have to work through pitch-reading and rhythm training until I'm satisfied that their reading is strong enough to make it all the way through the second year of literature before they can even touch the piano. Then I make them do the first exercises of each of those right then at the interview. Then I go over to the piano, and show them what they'll be starting to play in about 3 months: The C major prelude from the 1st book of Bach's Well-Tempered.

Everybody goes nuts about the Bach. They can't imagine that they'll be able to play THAT, EVER!!!! Then I say good by, and tell them to go home and 1- read my studio policy very carefully, and 2- think about whether they want to work that hard. Anybody who's not serious never calls me back. The others, call in a day or two to arrange the first lesson.

Adults need a good deal of inspiration in order to keep focused on their goals. They all start out handicapped with the belief that this is impossible, and they can't do it. The readings in theory and history help them stay interested in what is initially a very dry and tedious study with few noticeable rewards. We work through the rhythm and note-reading while reading the Copland, which I explain in even more detail at the lessons. By the time we get to the chapter on harmony, about 3 weeks, their pitch-recognition and interval reading is just strong enough to start analyzing chords in a very simple way. So I pull out the Bach, and make them figure out the root-position triad in the first measure. Once they realize they can do it, and without much help from me, they are much more motivated to continue.

About this time, I let them try scales. We have already read about them in the Copland, and they can grasp what a circle of 5ths might be so it all dovetails beautifully. About this time, we start also reading the history, one chapter a week. The story of the development of Western Art Music is a fascinating one that we can talk about endlessly. The reading puts their study into a much broader context that they had no idea existed. Also about this time, I start giving them examples to listen to on Youtube, and we discuss them at the lesson.

Sometime about week 8, I give them the Bartok Mikrokosmos I and have them sight-read the first 10 pieces. This introduces the idea and experience of dissonance in a very practical way, so we can start talking about tritones and their resolution. They've been doing simple chord analyses for about 3 weeks, so this is not merely an abstract concept. If this goes well, then we start analyzing all the chords in the first two phrases in the Bach. They can usually figure out everything except the borrowed dominants, which I explain to them. If that goes well, I make them start playing the triads blocked, and make them memorize the progression. After a couple of weeks of that, I make them play the first 4 measures as written, which they can all do. And then they freak out.

I do not expect my adult students to keep a perfect practice schedule. They simply can't promise that. So I make sure, in the first few months, that there's plenty to do aside from just go over the exercises. We talk about the history a lot, which people find very interesting. We do some listening, at the piano and on the stereo, especially about the evolution from modal counterpoint to tonal homophony. Sometime in the 3rd month we also start formal ear training exercises on a very inconsistent basis. if they haven't practiced certain key lessons, I make them do them in front of me at the lesson.

By month 4, we've worked through the 1st half of the Bach, which they've memorized. We're about to finish up the Bartok, so I give them a big pile of 1st and 2nd grade music to take home and read through. I check their progress with that periodically, but most adults can get through it in about 6-10 weeks. By that time, the Bach has become a holy grail that they're going to finish and play for their mother, or at a Christmas family event, or something. You couldn't pry it out of their cold-dead fingers.

By month 6, a lot of people have finished the Bach. Their pitch-reading and rhythm decoding are very strong and ahead of their grade. They can do basic harmonic analysis, they understand and play scales, they read easily at a first- or second-grade level, and they can usually take a simple dictation with few errors. They know just enough to be dangerous, but they have accomplished at least one thing and they sort of know where they are going.

I know it seems like a lot, but for the teenager or adult beginner of average intelligence and coordination, this can all be done right at the beginning. The teacher is kept very busy during the lessons, but it's a lot more fun than the other way!

Laguna Greg, trying to get a better picture, so a couple of first questions. So your students are studying music away from the keyboard. "Reading" would be reading written notation, maybe naming the notes, or maybe singing? But reading at this point would not involve association the notes on the page with the notes on the piano, since they are not working at the piano for 3 or 4 weeks, correct?

So then they go to the piano and they play a scale. As soon as you play more than 4 notes you run out fingers for scales. Do you give them the thumb crossover, or do they just do it any which way for now? Scales in different keys?

Then they sight read a few lines. How do they associate the notes on the page with the notes on the piano?

Because of the things that are my personal priority, I am wondering about technique - i.e. the quality of the music and the eventual quality of the music. You have not mentioned this. How does this part go?

Also, since adult students cover a range of 60 - 80 years, with wide backgrounds, do you have adults who have goals or interests that are different from the ones you have mentioned, and if so can they be accommodated by different routines? What, for example, if someone who wishes to learn like a child?

Hi keystring,

"So your students are studying music away from the keyboard."

Yes. This is usually done at my dining table. Moving to the piano is a moment celebrated with much formality and ceremony,

" Do you give them the thumb crossover, or do they just do it any which way for now?"

We do a one-octave scale each hand the first time around the circle of 5ths, standard fingering, along with blocked chords and inversions. We start at C, and do all the sharp scales first, then the flat scales, then the minors in the same order. We don't skip anything. Yes, I show them crossing under the thumb. They're adults, for pity's sake! They can handle it just fine if a little awkwardly at first.

"Then they sight read a few lines. How do they associate the notes on the page with the notes on the piano?"

There are two ways of looking at that. They will not "sight-read" anything for several weeks (dechiffrage sur place, disent-ils les francais), yet at the same time they are sight-reading all the time. Associating notes with keys at the piano takes about twenty minutes of me pointing it out to them, and a couple of weeks of familiarity and me pointing it out to them some more. The problem with "reading" is decoding pitches and rhythm groups with some confidence, and learning to feel and hear it in your head. By comparison, learning the keys on the piano takes no effort at all for most people. The relationship becomes painfully and boringly obvious once we start scales.

"Because of the things that are my personal priority, I am wondering about technique"

This is also a concern of mine as well. But really, what technique are you going to teach a rank beginner after just a few lessons? I was a long-time teaching assistant at the Taubman Institute in the 80s and 90s, so my perspective about technique is quite different from other people. At the very first, I don't make them worry too much about how they are doing things physically. They can't do much anyway, and it will just make them overly self-conscious. But as the lessons progress, and their intellectual and physical knowledge of that Bach prelude increases, they can do more. I usually introduce ideas about legato and tone production. The very first blocked chords they play are an abject lesson in keystroke timing, tone quality, support, and unification of the upper extremity that can all be taught very simply and directly. Could there be any other techniques that should be taught at this point?

Scale-playing requires more refinement of the movement pattern than almost any other skill at the keyboard. But that is the study of a lifetime. In the beginning, I just talk about connecting, the walking arm, and the proper use of the thumb if you're familiar with Taubman's technical ideas. I also talk about alignment and support, but I don't make an issue of "hand position" per se unless the hand is severely collapsed. The rest can all be improved and refined over time.

"...and the eventual quality of the music."

Naturally! At first they can't make it sound like anything at all, and they hear it just as well as I do. But as their confidence increases, and their physical and intellectual knowledge firms, they can do more. By the second lesson on the Bach, I talk about physical and sonic legato. At the very end, I can get most students to start putting in dynamic inflections that give their playing a lot of color and shape. Since they've studied the harmony, they can use the harmonic progression as a way to think about shaping the phrase if you point it out to them. Most of my beginners, if they are old enough to do this piece, can usually make that Bach sound very much like Angela Hewitt's CD when they're done.

"...do you have adults who have goals or interests that are different from the ones you have mentioned, and if so can they be accommodated by different routines?"

Yes, I've worked with adults who had other ideas, especially those who want to really study jazz. However, I make every beginner follow this syllabus for the first 6 months or year and especially the adults. I can guarantee a certain outcome at a fairly high level of knowledge and ability if they follow it, one they will not achieve if they follow other methods for the same length of time. I'm not interested in teaching another syllabus, so I'm happy to recommend other teachers if they think they should be doing something else.