Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum NOS Petrof IV -- needs regulation, why?

Hey Mark,

I wasn't relating the two, but making a comparison. In other words, a regulation simply by spec vs. an optimized regulation.

We're all familiar with the common regulation, where a tech will choose a point or two from specification of that piano and then regulate everything until it fits into alignment. I was relating that simple operation to the Yamaha, where everything is technically there and done well.

The other types of regulation I was pointing at are the kinds that take the instrument into new realms. I guess you could call it organic regulation, where every spec is thrown out the window, to find where the piano begins to bloom.

I felt like Steingraeber was a good example of that kind of work.

Thanks Tunewerk

In other words there is a difference between the "domestic" regulated piano and the concert regualted piano?

I could see the piano needing regulation even if it was barely used. But hammers shouldn't be worn (filing) if the piano was barely played. Voicing, maybe, to improve the tone from factory stock.

Bass strings shouldn't be worn in 15 years unless the piano was subjected to poor environmental conditions.

Hmm.. communication is difficult around ephemeral subjects like this. I don't know exactly what you mean, but it sounds right.

One thing that comes to mind is I wouldn't put the term 'concert' on it personally. Just for communication sake on my end. Much concert work is done quickly for pianos that are already at a high level - good work under the duress of limited time.

I was more talking about the tools within good technician's abilities. The low end regulation vs. high end. Primarily pointing to the vast differences in technique and time.

ok, I understand now and agree.

Thanks Tunewerk

Well, I did pay a RPT technician to look it over before I bought it. He was a grumpy old guy who told me straight out he never saw a Petrof he liked, but after looking through my IV for more than an hour he grudgingly admitted that he'd buy it if his wife asked him for a piano. His final assessment was "the keys need a little easing but that's it, everything else is great". I was very surprised after I had it moved to my home and my local techs looked it over that they would tell me it needs thousands of dollars worth of work.

My Petrof has a Detoa action and I can't tell if it has those Imadagawa Hammers or not, but Priscilla indicated they needed some serious voicing along with a bunch of other stuff (like making them hit all the 3 strings at the same time).

I'm sure Priscilla is the best person to have do everything possible with what there is to work with ... but here's is the heart of matter: Does the Petrof really have the chops to be spectacular, like that Steinway, or doesn't it? I've seen a mix of differing opinions on that.

I'm going to move my piano up to her workshop in January and have her do the work for $4K instead of my normal guy for $2K because I believe she won't stop until everything is perfect ... (boy I hope nothing happens to my car or my job or anything in the meantime.) It's a huge roll of the dice, let's hope it all turns out good.

Thanks,

J.

Steinway would be out of business if $4000 could make a piano that costs a third as much play and sound like their pianos.

Yes. Stop fretting.

>Well, I did pay a RPT technician to look it over before I bought it.

Ok, good job on your side, bad luck...

>Does the Petrof really have the chops to be spectacular, like that Steinway, or doesn't it?

ok, sounds like you did not discuss that thoroughly with your tech Priscilla yet? Make sure that the tech knows exactly what you are aiming for. I'm pretty sure Petrof is up to being spectacular but again IMHO it will always sound different from a Steinway unless they replace the entire guts.

Imadegawa hammers would be a stopping point for me. All the ones I have seen have too dense felt and when you shape them to remove mass and lower inertia-the tone becomes way too bright. Dense felt does not needle well resulting in more shredded fibers than stretched looser fibers. If you only do shallow needle work, the felt will work-harden quickly with playing.
Also since you seem set on Steinway tone, I as a technician would warn you even if I fit a set of Steinway "style" hammers to a Petrof it will not sound like a Steinway. With a Steinway "style" hammer properly tone-regulated, it would be a fine piano though and likely would sell more readily at a greater price later. Plus you would be able to enjoy playing it for several years while you plan your finances and seek out a Steinway at best price/value ratio. Maybe the Rappaports could keep their eye open for you when one of their older Steinway clients downsizes.

Ed, thanks for your advice on those hammers. Are you suggesting replacing them with something else, able or renner?

You misunderstand me when I rave about the rappaport steinways. It wasn't the tone (even though I liked very much) but the way it played and felt and just seemed to express the slightest nuance just by barely thinking about it. I love the petrof tone but it's action is very stiff even though the touch weight measures under 50 grams, it feels much heavier on the fingers than the steinways with the same touch weight and the tone is not as even between the notes.

I just want it to be as nice as those steinways and my questions are about trying to find out if it can/will be if I put the money into it or not.

When people ask me about these things, I tell them to do the basics, and then decide if they want to do more. So far, nobody has wanted to do more.

After a certain point, replacing the hammers becomes a more logical choice. Abel and Renner typically produce hard, dense, heavy hammers, so they would not be an ideal replacement. Ronsen is a better bet.



Assuming a well-regulated action, a heavy touch is the result of a mismatch between the action ratio and hammer mass. In a neglected piano, poor regulation, excess friction, and poor voicing can exacerbate the problem. Fortunately, it is fixable.

Hammers taller about .8 to 1 cm, and undercentering, hence more shank wobble than usually, much more strike point move depending of the force of the stroke, and fast wear of the heads in cas the piano is played intensively.

Letoff have also more friction with a jack a little back of the roller core (action can be raised front to compensate but then the hammer bore may be less than 90°)

I changed the heads on a 6 years old Hoffman (same plate and technology than Petrof) , latin jazz played the last 2 years.

Hammer centers where worn, it was difficult to raise the stack and reduce hammer height (without changing the whippen heel )

More recent models are possibly not undercentering, I just dont know.

Soundboard interesting, Pinblock locally made.

Cloths and felts of Detoa action where too mellow , lack firmness, this have changed lately (you always can impregnate cloth to have it tighter)

In the end that makes that action that have alittle bit too much of the "running on a pillow" sensation.
I just cannot understand how this could be compared to any Steinway, what are the criteria..?