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Hello
Can anyone of you tuners give me some tutorial of how to tune Berhard Stoppers temperament aurally? Is there a recording of the thmperament avaliable, e.g. How sounds the octave, how the fifth and the duodecime? What are the checks, to know if I am on the right way or not? And how sounds this "beat masking effect"?
Many questions!! Thanks for all the tips and help

Toni

Toni:

You will probably need to contact Mr. Stopper directly. It is a bit of a mystery... tuning pure twelfths is a different matter.

Already tried!! Need more help thank you!

I found a PTG article at http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/PTG2008_StopperTemperament.pdf and am reading it now. I will let you know what I think after.
Pure 12ths is not a "temperament" technique per se, it is a technique for tuning the treble (and can be used for bass as well) that produces consistent octaves. That I can help you with. I've tuned pure 12ths (pure duodecimes?) for many years, but now prefer tempered 12ths as a compromise for pure triple octaves and better sounding double octaves.

This might help, at least as far as hearing what it sounds like...a few years ago, I recorded my grand piano using Mr. Stoppers software, I posted these and a few more files in a posting comparing ETD's. Here are a couple of the recordings. The piano is a 1927 M&H 7ft Grand with the LX playback system. I tuned it using Mr. Stoppers software.

The Age of Innocence played on the LX by B.Pezzone https://www.box.com/shared/s4huo9y1pm

Oh Danny Boy (jazz version) played by E.Reed on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/degdfasivzvwkh3q5xza



I found a classical recording I made that I never posted here before, using the Stopper tuning.

Earl Wild playing Brahms on the LX. https://www.box.com/s/mikdttqniq8051wp48fa

So far, the article seems to be selling some software, and a tool to play 12ths with one hand.

The first step in the temperament seems to be to tune a pure 12th with the software. Not needed. To tune a pure 12th, say F3C5, use the check note a M6 below F3 (Ab2). Ab2 does not need to be in tune, just creating audible beats with F3 and C5.
Make Ab2F3 = Ab2C5 (M6 = M17). This is by definition, a pure 3:1 12th. (Beats will be heard at C5, partial 3 of F3, and partial 1 of C5)

Also, if you play Ab2F3C5 together, all at once, the beats will produce a beat like this:
wah-Wah-WAh-WAH-WAh-Wah-wah-Wah-WAh-WAH-WAh-Wah-wah...
where the capitals indicate loudness.
So a non pure 12th will produce a beating or phasing of the beat. When you hear a solid beat (at C5, no phasing or slow pulsation of the beat) while playing Ab2F3C5, then you have a pure 12th.

Also note, if all your M6s from F3 to B4 are steady and evenly increasing, and you use this technique to tune the 12ths above, then all your M17s will be smooth and increasing. Pretty cool, huh?

It's a shame Mr Stopper is so protective over his tuning sequence. It would be nice to know what the 'cancelling effects' are that he refers to in the brief section on aural temperament tuning. The implication is there is some alignment of beats within the temperament so that they cancel. I'd like to know what is actually involved.

Brahms?

Well, the only "cancelling" I can think of may be in the octave itself. When an octave is tuned just right, IMHO, (beatless, as the old-timers say), it is possible to imagine the beats at the different co-incidental partials cancelling each other out. The accepted size (PTG RPT) for the mid-range is between a 4:2 and a 6:3. This means the octave will beat as a:

very wide 2:1
wide 4:2
narrow 6:3, and a
very narrow 8:4

and the "beatless" size is, as one can imagine, the size where the 2:1 beat cancels the 8:4, and the 4:2 beat cancels the 6:3.

When I teach octave sizes in my course, I go through all the theory with check notes, etc, then I say, "just tune the octave beatless, listen to the treble, and try to get rid of all that noise.". Nine times out of ten, when we check, the students have tuned a clean octave (beatless?) that is between a 4:2 and a 6:3.

The pure 12th technique produces octave sizes that are not only between a 4:2 and a 6:3, but at the same spot within that window for all the octaves.

I learned this from Dave Renaud, who learned it from Jack Stebbins, and I was told that this is the standard that the PTG is using to tune the treble on the master tuning of exam pianos.

Using this technique, I was able to get 98% on the treble for my first RPT attempt. The graph actually followed the changes in the string diameters.

As for cancelling the beats of the thirds or sixths in the temperament, I don't believe that is possible. (Unless maybe the inside/outside M3/M6 could produce beat cancellation if played at the same time. i.e. F3G3B3D4.)

Right you are! I was looking at some E. Wild Chopin I had also recorded. Thanks for the correction.

Hear, hear! I second these thoughts exactly.

I am by far no expert on the Stopper tuning, but I have heard his tuning at a presentation he gave. The cancelling effect that struck me was the following:
the octave (eg: A3 - A4) sounded clean and pure, both the fifth and fourth (A3 - E4 and E4 - A4) sounded proper, with the slow roll. But when all three notes were play together, the beats were cancelled out and the sustain had a smooth, clean sound, almost reminiscent of a pipe organ. It was really something. I think this effect has to be experienced, otherwise all talk is speculation.

A lot has been written on his tuning on this forum, Stopper himself made many posts a few years ago. It's all in the archives....

Thank you all for your information and help. I have already tried to tune the Stopper temperament aurally. I asked Bernhard how to do, he told me to do the doudecime aurally pure and then go on as usual.... But no further help and tests. I askes another german tuner, but... no answer.

Grandpianoman: thanks for the recordings, sound very nice, I have found them already on my way through the archives. Do you also have a recording of the temperament tuned with Bernhards software? Would be nice to clearly hear only the temperament, and all the intervals.
Mark: thanks for your detailed infromation and the test for the doudecime. I read the file again you added ( I knew it before) and unfortunately there is no description of the way through the temperament.

I can't imagine that there is no instructional sheet out there of that tuning. The software is too expensive to buy without really knowing that it is worth it. But I am really interrested in this tuning!

Can't you send me a Christmas present, Bernhard? and to all the others who are interested in your tuning?

Toni

All:

I think Mr. Stopper hears things in a way others do not. He has been adamant that his tuning is NOT pure 3:1 twelfths.

As far as beat cancelation in general, any time three notes are played and the beating of two intervals equal each other, there will be beat cancelation. In the case of 3:1 twelfths (NOT as Mr. Stopper's says he tunes) this would include a stacked fifth and octave. The same thing happens with a stacked 4th and 5th with a 4:2 octave.

Toni:

I have tried many times to use a sequence that uses multiple 12ths along with octaves, 4ths and 5ths within them. I always end up with 5ths that are too pure and a M3 that is too slow compared to its neighbors when tuning the 9th note of the scale.

What I have come up with is a sequence that fits within one pure 3:1 twelfth:

A4 to fork
D3 to A4
D4 to D3, check D4-A4
A3 to A4, check D3-A3, check A3-D4
E4 to A3, check E4-A4
G3 to D4, check D3-G3, check G3-E4 (first RBI check)
E3 to E4, check E3-A3
G4 to G3, check D4-G4

You now have an octave tuned for each of the 4 ladders for tuning sets of contiguous major thirds, if you are so inclined. Since I do not believe that CM3s are appropriate across or near a break I do not use them. Instead, from E3 I tune up by fifths and down by octaves always staying within the first pure twelfth that was tuned: D3-A4. The checks are similar to the checks in Dr. White's sequence only with more of them.

That is NOT correct. Yes, whenever three notes are played, there are two beat rates created, but they will never cancel out unless the two waves are exactly the same frequency and OUT OF PHASE! I.e. With identical frequencies, you can have constructive interference (waves are in phase and beat is louder), or destructive interference. (Waves are out of phase and beat is cancelled.)

Mark:

You have a point. Cancellation is not the best term to use. I think you know what is being talked about. Do you have a better term? In other words do you have something constructive to say?

Another way to put it would be the difference frequency of the beats is zero.

Hi all,

To me the Stopper tuning masks Major 10ths (1 octave + Major 3rd) and Major 17ths (2 octaves + Major 3rd). Normally when I hear a classical recording of a piano tuned in 'conventional' ET, I can spot the 10ths/17ths right away inside the large Major harmonies being played (C-E in a C Major chord). These beats will sometimes fight against the slightly fainter, but still noticeable Major 6ths inside the same Major chord (G-E). Once you have tuned a fair amount of pianos, you cannot 'un-hear' this 10th and 17th beating in listening to piano music (which can be a good or bad thing - ha). That's how I can immediately tell if the piano is in tune, other than the obvious unisons of course. And usually on a classical recording, so much care has been placed in the tuning, that you can hear the precisely placed beat-rates all over the place.

Not so with the Stopper tuning. Take another listen to the Earl Wild recording (thanks Grandpianoman). Whenever there is a Major harmony, the 10th's/17th's should stick out like sore thumbs (at least they do to me), but here, even though the same amount of tuning care and precision is applied, I cannot hear the 10ths/17ths and 6ths so well. They are hidden in the mix, or muffled, or masked.

This is what gives the tuning a 'still' or pure quality. This in contrast to conventional ET where there is a lot more activity going on in the beat-rate department.

No pun intended, right?

I thought I was being constructive by helping to clarify the terminology.



If the difference is zero, you can still have constructive or destructive interference.

To be fair and honest, your post was clear and everyone should have inferred that you meant out-of-phase destructive interference. However, the situation can occur where the beats add up, so I thought I should mention it.

Toni, you're welcome.

Unfortunately, I don't have a recording of just his temperament.

Going back through my box.net archives, I found these...since I tuned and recorded all of these back in 2009/10, my tuning has improved, so please forgive some of the unisons.


Stopper Tuning-1927 M&H 7ft RBB Grand played on the LX system.

Earl Wild playing the Liszt Ballade No 2 in B minor on the LX, Stopper Tunic OnlyPure Tuning--Corrected in Audacity.mp3 https://www.box.com/shared/qo5nskakfs ( caveat: I remember Mr. Stopper was ok with this recording, except for some of the unisons. Also, that is a pretty bombastic piece...when it was done, my tuning was not where I left it. Stability has improved since then.)

E. Reed Jazz 2 Stopper tuning https://www.box.com/s/3mtx82cdnnmk3zoe4f2q (first time posting)

E. Reed Jazz 1 Stopper tuning https://www.box.com/s/ev1m6cw9234l2vcgtxcj (first time posting)