Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Which stage piano for less than $3K, and why?

You can certainly get a workstation with weighted keys. Some 88 key workstations arguably have better feeling piano-style keybeds than some DPs do. In other cases, they're basically the same. The Korg SP250, SV-1, and Kronos 73/88 all have basically the same keybed. So I wouldn't rule out a workstation, if that's what you want, based on it not being called a DP.


Without getting into how "typical" 50% markup is (or how many channels may need to mark something up along the way from manufacturing to retail; or that a 50% markup on something to reach a $79 sell price actually yields a $26 profit rather than $40)... more fundamentally, your basic underlying premise doesn't apply to software, which has relatively high upfront development costs and virtually no production costs.

Thanks guys.... Going to head down to Guitar Center in a bit. They have a Yamaha MOTIF XF8 on the floor and I had just briefly messed with it before and thought the keys had a nice feel but I wasn't really looking for that at the time so I just dismissed it. I will spend some time with it today though. :-) Of course the Nord stage 2 will get looked at more intensively as well. Mostly to get an idea for the keys and sounds since it is way above my budget. But it should give me a good idea if their piano is something I want. Maybe I can overlook the loud keys. Or just open the thing up and put some dampening material inside... I have seen that people have been doing just that and it dramatically reduces the noise...

No it wouldn't, The Krome's AP's can't compare with the Roland SN sound. And Korg wouldn't know a good action if they fell over it.

Im not sure if its been mentioned, but I would wait until after NAMM.. there might be a successor to the kawai mp10 (which is a pretty darn good stage piano under 3k)

You made me, LOL..... Good to know.

Yes Ill wait till after January to buy. When new products are announced at the show when do they usually release them? Is it typically later in the year?

It varies, sometimes the instruments start shipping a few weeks later, on other occasions it take 6 months or so for new models to in stores.

James
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Thanks James!

I loved the keyboard on the ES7 btw. I just wish it had more sounds. If the rumors are true about an updated version of the MP6 (maybe NAMM) that will be on the top of my purchase list for sure...

thercman, I'm glad to hear you appreciated the ES7's keyboard action. This model features 32 selectable sounds - granted this isn't going to rival the hundreds typically available on a workstation, but I believe it's acceptable for the category of instrument.

As for an updated MP6, I'm afraid I cannot comment on instruments that have yet to be announced formally.

Cheers,
James
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@Roady73

"I confirmed this with a Kawai rep after an hour long conversation. The MP6 will most likely be updated at NAMM 2014. "

I guess you mean 2013 ? Or is it really going to take an other year ?

I'm not trying to step on James's toes because he clearly has more info on this topic, but from what the Kawai rep that I spoke to told me, NAMM 2014 would be more likely for an MP6 update. He did say that anything can happen during the year if Kawai feels that it is needed to speed up plans for an MP6 update due to competitors, but NAMM 2013 will not see an MP6 update.

That stinks. I've more-or-less learned to lower my expectations for NAMM, though. Your dream piano always comes out later than you expect (or never).

I was going to put the MP6 as my #1 purchase based on a model update at NAMM. If it doesn't happen I am looking at the RD700NX as my second choice and the MP10 3rd.

I do find it strange that, particularly Yamaha and Kawai, are slow to bring a totally killer (yet practical) stage board to the party. Both companies can draw on their experience with acoustics; both can produce a very good action - excellent in the case of Kawai; technology is readily available. Instead, Korg has leaped ahead in the technical specs area, while being hamstrung by lesser actions and questionable build quality, and Roland has stolen a three-year march on the others with their hybrid SN engine that links so well with their PHAIII action, despite lacking a little of their competitors' clarity of sound.

Now Korg has proved that it's possible to make full use of TODAY'S technology, what is holding the others back? Thanks partly to Dewster's hard work, the Yamaha CPs were shown to be stretched, looped and static, and players have been put off by their convoluted interface and lack of attention to weight/bulk - which is a real problem as keyboardists struggle to access and set up in small, restricted venues. And as for Kawai, as I've said a hundred times before, they seem content to foist sample-engines on us stage players that are well past their prime.

Either Yamaha or Kawai, by bringing their technology up to VST standards, and marrying it with their excellent actions in a lightweight board, could pretty much clean up in the stage market. I wonder if Yamaha thought that their name, coupled with Spectral Component Modeling gobbledygook, was enough to sway prospective purchasers. But reading around the forums, so many people have either been put off by the interface or weight, or have (like Dave Ferris) reluctantly switched from the CP5 to other brands because of the impracticality, not to mention the dumbing-down of the lighter CP50 model. And Kawai's MP6, which I praise for its more sensible approach to weight, interface and surprisingly good Rhodes emulation, does not have quite enough in the AP department to attract many serious stage players into the Kawai camp, AFAIK.

Nearly every time I watch a music show on TV, I see red... or Roland. In American Idol the band leader had (IIRC) a Roland RD-700NX. And in the X-Factor mentor sessions, I spied a Nord Stage 2. I know those are only two examples, but they point up a failure on the part of the other manufacturers to get (and keep) their products in the hands of top players.

I should stress that I'm only talking about stage products here. I know that Yamaha and Kawai have some stunning home/studio models, according to reports from users. But I feel that I have to keep flying the flag for beleaguered mobile players until the manufacturers treat our needs seriously. Heck, I've even decided to use my aging FP-4 for this coming weekend's shows as, TBH, what it lacks in the latest refinements, it more than makes up for in weight (33lbs), and playability.

voxpops,

What about carrying a Roland A-88 (or similar) to a gig with a MAcBook Pro and all the VST's you can cram in it? Is it not easy enough to switch sounds on the fly with a set up like that? i.e.. lack of instant access buttons etc? Maybe add in a Maschine or other small board to have access to sounds? Not saying this is a cheaper option but it would provide unlimited access to any VST you could imagine. Whereas any stage piano is limited to what's already stored in it. I know on other forums many are going this route for home studios due to the shear versatility. I am newb remember so please take this with a grain of salt. :-)

It's something I'm actively considering. I would probably use my existing MP6 or Numa piano, both of which have on-panel control of MIDI functions, and which also contain backup sounds.

Up to now, I've only gone down the on-stage VST route with VB3 and a netbook. That worked fine, but mainly because I didn't have to make changes on the PC - I could control everything from the board - and the resources needed were limited. I have been reluctant to do the same with piano VSTs, as the hardware requirements are so much greater. Also, I would need something larger than a netbook, and so siting becomes an issue (as well as security). I'm thinking about a convertible tablet running on an i5.

Multiple sounds becomes a bit of an issue, but for the most part I could stick with APs and EPs on the PC, and for the odd occasions when I need something else, I could use on-board or module sounds.

If you're talking about the Krome, it's only been three months. ;-)

But all these companies products are based on decisions made along the way. In hindsight, Korg was very forward thinking in developing the Oasys as a Linux based platform back when it wasn't necessarily a cost effective choice, and the Oasys gave them a jump on developing the Kronos, as they already had a foundation that would transfer nicely to newer, cheaper, more powerful commodity components. I think it's interesting that even the Oasys couldn't stream samples, and it took them a year after the Kronos came out before you could stream any samples but their own optimized ones. Here they are immersed in an environment that supports it, and it still wasn't a slam dunk. I think that part of it is that people expect their computers to occasionally misbehave. If you load various streaming samples into your laptop, you know that you may have to tweak settings, you know that there may be delays in switching sounds, you know that there will occasionally be some audible glitch or excessive latency or a freeze up or whatever, but as computer users, you get used to accepting that something will only work right "most" of the time. When you buy a musical instrument, you expect it to work right pretty much 100% of the time.

Anyway, obviously, the competition has seen what Korg has done. Yamaha is probably best positioned to make similar moves, as their Motif became linux-based at its core at some point, I think with the XS. Roland is going an entirely different way, emphasizing modeling over humongous sets of raw data, so I don't see a huge streaming piano sample in their future (and actually, Yamaha has taken some steps in that direction as well, with SCM). As for the smaller players--Kawai, Nord, Kurzweil--it will be interesting to see what they do. They presumably don't have the resources of the big guys, but OTOH, sometimes a smaller company (or division) can be more nimble.

Whatever happened to good old industrial espionage?

I agree with you Scott, but I just think that turning this ship around is taking a heck of a long time. The writing's been on the wall ever since the main VST libraries got into gear, and was etched in stone when Kronos was launched. Yes, we do need our gear to work 100% of the time, and that's why I've been reluctant to go the VST route, but embedded technology is a heck of a lot more reliable, I understand.

So what do you guys think about modeling vs sampling? From what I understand with sampling you can here a note loop while sustaining but not with modeling. Also from what I can tell by listening (untrained ear btw) sampling seems to be more lively whereas modeling a little flatter... Not sure if I explained that right.

That's only if it is looped. Some of the above posters are hoping DP's can start doing like VST's and having great big 30 second (or whatever) samples that have no looping and sound just like the acoustic from which they were sampled. Frankly that's what I was expecting in the AvantGrands, and it would be awesome.

Sampled vs modeled sound is just a bit outside the scope of this thread since the only modeled hardware piano is the V and it costs far more than $3k, but suffice it to say that both have their advantages in VST's. For most people including myself sampled sounds are still more authentic. Hardware digitals may go the route of software VST's (with great big samples) or pure modeling (like PianoTeq and the V piano) or a hybrid of the two approaches (most hardware pianos have at least some modeling element but Roland's supernatural appears to have the most by far and is the poster child for hybrid approaches).

Modeling = no loop

Sampling = no loop if sampled for the full length of the note, otherwise looped, sometimes more audible than others

For some people, audible loops are a death knell. To me, there are worse sins. There are DPs I prefer to the Kronos, even though they are looped and the Kronos is not. None of the available DPs/workstations are perfect, but different people are more attuned to different shortcomings.