Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner What Level am I?

Thank you, though I'm tempted to think you only like my self-effacing admission about the Moonlight..


Jesus, are you a truck driver? That's 273 mi/day with no holidays or weekends! Cross-country truck drivers max at about 125-150k mi/yr. The average American drives 12-13k mi/yr. Heck, I did national sales for 3 years, and only managed about 35k mi/yr.

I'll take a look at your technique issues, but keep in mind what I suggest is truly only the most common issues I've come across. It is difficult to say for certain whether they might specifically apply to you.


"Strengthening" is probably the wrong word, and the idea of it leads to many side-issues, particularly "gripping". I can think of two very common issues here:

1. Tension
2. Interdependence

Tension is a very common cause of feelings of "weakness". When your hand/arm mechanism is tense, the muscles are contracted, and fatigue easily. The smaller the muscle, the faster the fatigue. Practicing slowly can help to eliminate some tension, but there could be inherent, underlying technique issues that are causing it. If the chord is a pretty large stretch (or, particularly, is a broken chord), you may be stretching, which is similar to 'gripping' or locking your hand in one particular form in order to not miss the notes. All of this is tension. Unfortunately, the cause of tension is difficult to diagnose, and would likely require us sitting down at the keys to examine.

Interdependence is easier to diagnose. What I mean here, is that you are trying to play (for example) something like a 3 on 2 rhythm, and can't quite get it to match up. In an example like this, you are not feeling the firing of the notes in the correct sequence, and hence, it causes issues in playing it back. Another example would be notes that should be played together.. if you do not play them together, you are not quite getting the "feel" for how they are supposed to be attacked. Slow practice can help with this. The usual culprit is transitioning relatively quickly between left/right motions of each wrist.. it is a coordination issue.


This statement leads me to believe I may have been on track when I mentioned "gripping" and "coordination" issues. I inherently believe you have quite a bit of tension in your playing, and nothing screams coordination and/or tension issues like double thirds. Why? They're very complicated.. one of the most advanced techniques out there. When you say "muddy", what does that mean? Are you not able to play the notes together? Is your hand "collapsing" as you try to play the notes, making it very difficult to play each third in the series? Check wrist height (when in doubt, try lifting your wrist higher first), whether you need to be in/out on the keys (if playing black keys, especially), and whether you release the proper note/notes at the proper time.


Leaps are actually counter-intuitive. The longer you hold the note, the easier the leap. Most leap issues revolve around trying to jump too soon. You tend to glide over the note/notes, and as a result, your hand loses track of where it is on the keyboard. Trust me, by now, you know where the keys are on the keyboard. They haven't moved in twenty-plus years. It's the way you move to/from the notes that causes the issue, and the easiest way to explain it is to hold the note longer. (Incidentally, make sure your entire hand/arm mechanism truly reaches the note you're trying to play. If you get there, hold it, and realize your finger is stretched and "reaching" for the note, instead of resting comfortably on it, then you're going to miss often.)


Depends. What causes the issues? "Strength" exercises are pointless. If you can press down the keys, you have enough strength to play the piano. (In this way, "strength" is a misnomer.) I'm guessing that this is a coordination issue.. that while trying to play "3" in a trill, your hand is stuck to the right, and vice versa. Creates a nasty "destructive interference" effect (to use the engineering/physics term) in your muscles/joints. Same for 4-5.

Another counter-intuitive principle: go slower. When you feel comfortable, go slower. And when that feels comfortable, go slower. If it doesn't feel comfortable, go even slower. This is one of many retraining techniques. Others may point out some great ones that work besides this one, but it's 2:35am and I'm pretty much at the end of my rope for one night.

I do hope this helps. Where are you in the country? (Well, if you travel 100k mi/yr, I should ask, when you are home, where is that?) If you're anywhere near me, or someone I know, perhaps we can arrange a "diagnosing" session to see if we can't help identify some particularly troubling issues in person? That is, if you're up for it.

Derulux,

These are great insights, tension is something I do struggle with. I will spend time with your suggestions and see what I can put into practice. Thanks for staying up until all hours to type this response!

My travel is on airplanes flying around the US and abroad, and I'm based in Northern Cal.

Thank you!

I was the same situation as the OP. I started self teaching piano about a year ago. I thought I was great. I could play the notes of some fairly difficult pieces, in the correct order, at a reasonable speed. Thats all thats involved in playing the piano , right? About 6 months ago, I started getting lessons, only once a month because I couldnt afford more. And I have learned that I am nowhere near as good as I thought, and that there is much more to playing piano than playing the notes in the correct order at a reasonable speed. Unless you are a genius, very disspassionate, honest in your self critisism, able to listen to your own performance with a critical ear, not just play and think "Hey, that was really good" , then having another ear, who is highly skilled and trained, to listen to you and give you advice, is a great way to advance your playing. Almost every time I go to my lesson with a piece ive been working on, I think I am playing it great, and then in the lesson I found out there are so many nuances I have just missed altogether.

I guess you could do it yourself, by listening to other peoples performances. But then you would have to be skilled at picking out the differences between their performances and yours, knowing how they did what they did, knowing why it was different, and knowing the correct way to do it. And if you could do that, then you would already be a concert pianist?

No problem, I'm happy to try and help.

Northern Cal is literally inbetween the areas I can recommend someone (Seattle/Portland or LA/San Diego). If you repost in the teacher's forum, there may be someone who can help you find a "diagnostician" there. I'll ask around, but I can't make any promises.

What kind of job do you have? Is it some type of professional training, where you fly somewhere and stay there for 2-3 weeks to train a staff, then fly out again? Or are you literally hopping flights every 2-3 days? Do you get home every 30-60 days?

Reason I ask is this: have you ever heard of skype (online video conferencing) lessons? More teachers are beginning to offer this, and for someone on the go, it might not be a bad option. It's tough to carry the piano with you, but if you can get back home every 30-60 days, a quick skype session might cut down on taking up your time, while also helping you progress more quickly.

I think all the above lengthy posts are interesting and there's a chance they might be relevant but no one knows based on all the verbal descriptions. For starters, I'd guess the word "tension" could mean countless different things to different people.

The skype suggestion is a good idea. IMO to changing one's way of playing cannot normally be achieved by lengthy posts. A teacher has to see and hear what's happening, offer suggestions, have the student try something, see how it works, offer more advice, etc. It usually doesn't happen by reading a lengthy essay.

I think it may be possible to help with a very specific technical question but general improvement in technique and musicianship require a teacher to be there, either live or by skype to see and hear what's happening and to have an ongoing dialogue with the student.

Doug145,

Regardless of your level, at your age and limited time schedule, I would recommend that you don't waste more time with Czerny or the likes. These are generally for young pianists (kids) and are of less value for adults.
Instead work on the repertoire that you enjoy playing.

I would especially recommend the Tchaikovsky Bb minor concerto. IMO your technique can benefit tremendously from practicing it.

Good luck.

BTW, this site can also help you.
And don't forget to look at the "ask me a question" section too.

http://www.pianocareer.com/archives/

Czerny is useless, period. Piano teachers who assign Czerny exercises, volume after volume, are doing so blindly because that's how their teachers were taught, and that's how their teachers' teachers were taught, etc.

If not regular, weekly lessons, how about an occasional coaching session? There are plenty of teachers in your area who wouldn't mind taking an occasional student like that.

The questions you posed are serious ones, but unfortunately this forum is not the correct medium through which you can get those questions answered satisfactorily. Even if you post Youtube videos of your performances, forum posters can barely scratch the surface. You really need a teacher.

AZN, as someone who have studied Czerny extensively in my teens, I wouldn't say Czerny is useless. Indeed young pianists can benefit very much from it.
I only wanted to emphasize that it is not useful for adults.

Why is it not useful for adults ? Is there a particular reason ? Is it an empirical statement or a proven fact ? Thanks for your reply.

It is musically less interesting for adults.
In fact they are basically scales, arpeggios, hanon, etc. put into somewhat more interesting little pieces to trick youngsters. While they are thinking they are working on a piece, they are actually working on scales, arpeggios, hanon etc., that they get bored and don't study effectively otherwise.

But for adults this trick of course does not work. And it is not necessary either. Adults, would voluntarily and more efficiently work on their scales, arpeggios, etc. to develop their techniques.

And, then, devote their limited time to repertoire that would make them enjoy their instrument much more.

So, in the end, Czerny and similar is a waste of time for adults.

Guess that's why it worked so well for me when I was young - I was duped !!!

HOWEVER - I found Czerny to be very helpful in improving my sight reading skills - and I would think adults might benefit from that as well.

That's an interesting idea that they are some kind of trick for children! I've had Czerny recommended to me by my current and former teacher whose opinions I respect very much.

These studies pose various technical difficulties that are worthwhile for any pianist to overcome. Yes Czerny probably wrote too many of them (it was very lucrative for him to do so) and I don't think it would be wise to work on them from cover to cover but I don't see how approaching them in an intelligent way could ever be a waste of time for adults or anyone else for that matter.

I agree with Vid. Perhaps some of us adults may need to be "duped" by Czerny into working a little more diligently on basic technical exercises such as scales and arpeggios and if Czerny succeeds - as he occasionally does - in making those exercises more interesting and if the end result is an improvement in those techniques, then more power to Herr Czerny.

Many of us adults can look past the immediate drudgery of scales - when worked on appropriately - to what they eventually will produce: greater evenness of tone, greater evenness and facility in passage work; similarly with exercises of Czerny and the like which may add a little bit of variety to those basics.

I certainly would not summarily dismiss them.

Regards,

Ok, for those of you with the time and patience go for it.


Here

(LOL, each repetition 20 times)

Thanks for your reply.

But not all his études are the same, aren't they ?
I'm 19 and my conservatory teacher makes me work on "Les Heures du matin", and many of them are both very cute and very interesting, because they make me learn new pianisms or work on new technical problems while being short and not a burden to work on. This, with the first chapter of Dohnanyi exercise constitue my main technical regimen.
But I understand why you're saying this about the most "purely mechnical (and sometimes quite long)" ones.
That said, I'd like to see a child playing those études at the written tempi (or even just playing those études)

You mean op.821 160 short exercises.
Well, to me at your age these are waste of time.

Instead you can work on scales, arpeggios, etc. and also on appropriate level Bach, Scarlatti, Haydn, some Beethoven bagatelles and similar pieces. IMO, this is much more productive and satisfactory for an adult student.

Why studying on little exercises that you will never play in the future ? IMO, building up a repertoire as early as possible is much rewarding in the long run.

Some shorter Czerny exercises are good for sight reading; in fact, I've used Opp. 599, 821, and 849 for that purpose.

I'm in the yes-and-no camp on the whole Czerny deal. I tend to lean on Hakki's side, because there are many pieces with similar technical difficulties that help build a repertoire, but at the same time, some of the principles behind Czerny are also decent.

I've been using Mozart lately for sight-reading, and it led to three new sonatas that I probably never would have played otherwise. But before Mozart, I did us Czerny for sight-reading, so I can see both sides of it.