2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
76 members (bobrunyan, Beemer, Almar, 3B43, BachToTheFuture, Befetti, Beowulf, aesop, 1957, 22 invisible), 632 guests, and 556 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Help me understand this progression
#2001087 12/18/12 10:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 190
J
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 190
I think the key is Em (G)

Am D G C
F B7 Em

The F is the chord I don't understand, I would think it is a bridge to go to B7, but F is not the V of B7, it should be F#

Do you know why the F is there ?

Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001094 12/18/12 10:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by Jose Hidalgo
I think the key is Em (G)

Am D G C
F B7 Em

The F is the chord I don't understand, I would think it is a bridge to go to B7, but F is not the V of B7, it should be F#

Do you know why the F is there ?


Because music doesn't have to stay strictly in one key, it can borrow from other keys. That chord progression is undergoing a cycle (also called a circle) of 5ths. From Am, each chord is a perfect fifth lower than the previous one. This means the C chord leads to F. Eventually a cycle of perfect 5ths will lead back to E, but if the composer wanted to get there sooner, and without going through too many chords that are very distant from the key, the process has to be interrupted and brought back to the tonic chord. This has been done via a dominant V7 chord leading back to i. What you see there is basically a cycle of 5ths but not all perfect 5ths. It's a diatonic cycle of 5ths. The F going to B7 is a tritone, but even if there had been a chord built on F#, there would still have been a tritone from C to F#. What this means is that in a diatonic cycle of 5ths, you have one chord from each letter name and it leads back to the tonic. One of the jumps will be a tritone. For the purposes of analysis, the F chord is still a II chord, it's just a bII. It's just there to add a bit of spice, but apart from the root note, it still shares 2 notes of the F#dim chord, (A and C).

Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001103 12/18/12 10:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,124
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,124
The F can also function as a flat5 of B7......if you're traveling through the circle of 5ths this adds a dimension that can be somewhat unexpected, surprising, even likeable.

rada


Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001120 12/18/12 11:30 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
I think the F chord serves more as a V of the the e-, not the ii (however a bII chord IS a V chord in function anyway)
F is the tritone sub of B (meaning they share the same third and seventh--if you decided to add a seventh to these chords)
I think it's inaccurate to say that the F can serve as a b5 of the B chord because even if B were the tonic here the F chord would clearly be subV of vi.

The basic progression without the F chord would go something like:

a- D G C
B B e-

The more common progression you'd see is

a- D G C
f#o B e-

Even though the F triad happens where the ii chord of e- falls, it functions more like the B chords so therefore serves to create a more extended V-i sound. Or looked at another way, the F chord is interpolated to DELAY the resolution to the i- chord making the ear wait longer for the resolution -- which makes it more satisfying when the progression finally goes there.


Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001121 12/18/12 11:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,498
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,498
Two things ... it might have been a typo and the 'F' chord might be a F#m7, F#ø7 ... or an F#7 or simply an F# ...

... or it could be a Neapolitan 6th harmony ... which, depending on your school of thought might be a first inversion F major triad (A, C, F) or a melodically altered Am triad.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Help me understand this progression
AJF #2001140 12/18/12 12:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by AJF
I think the F chord serves more as a V of the the e-, not the ii (however a bII chord IS a V chord in function anyway)
F is the tritone sub of B (meaning they share the same third and seventh--if you decided to add a seventh to these chords)
I think it's inaccurate to say that the F can serve as a b5 of the B chord because even if B were the tonic here the F chord would clearly be subV of vi.

The basic progression without the F chord would go something like:

a- D G C
B B e-

The more common progression you'd see is

a- D G C
f#o B e-

Even though the F triad happens where the ii chord of e- falls, it functions more like the B chords so therefore serves to create a more extended V-i sound. Or looked at another way, the F chord is interpolated to DELAY the resolution to the i- chord making the ear wait longer for the resolution -- which makes it more satisfying when the progression finally goes there.


I think what you are proposing here is debatable. First, the F chord is only a triad, not an F7, so it doesn't share the 3rd and 7th. For that reason, it fails the b5 substitution test. It's not substituting for the V, it's leading to the V. Not only that, but it's following a C chord and falling by a perfect fifth like the previous 4 chords. The listener doesn't know the destination of the progression until it happens - It's only when the B7 happens that you actually realise where the progression is going to terminate.

The F triad stands alone as its own chord because it doesn't share enough common tones with the real V, the B7. A bII is sufficiently distinctive in most situations to be considered more than a V7 substitute. For starters, I would argue that it either has to replace the V7, or if it's considered to be an extension of the V7, the bII must necessarily contain the b7 in it so it has two common tones with the V7 (b2 + leading tone). If the bass is playing the root notes, the ear can clearly hear the ii-V-i progression. I would argue that in the case of a triad, the bII is more of a iidim substitute than a V7 substitute because it shares 2 tones with its diatonic sister, rather than just one with the V7. If it were an F7, I might agree with you.

Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001165 12/18/12 01:10 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A i idim triad on its own is a dominant function chord anyway. It's only if you add a seventh to it does it become anything other than a dominant function chord (-7b5)
I'm not really looking for a debate. I'm just quoting the "rules" of tonal harmony.
Any major chord built on b2, whether its dominant or a triad serves a DOMINANT function. It does not replace ii. I replaces V.


Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001168 12/18/12 01:12 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
Even if the F chord was a Maj7 it would still serve a dominant function (see modal interchange)


Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
Re: Help me understand this progression
AJF #2001183 12/18/12 01:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by AJF
Even if the F chord was a Maj7 it would still serve a dominant function (see modal interchange)


Don't ask me to "see" anything, Adrean. I'm happy to debate with you anytime you like on the rules of harmony. I've been composing for years, got plenty of degrees in both jazz and classical music. Maybe you trade on your reputation as a performer, but your view of things is not universal.

And this statement is pure, weapons-grade boloneyum:

Originally Posted by AJF

Any major chord built on b2, whether its dominant or a triad serves a DOMINANT function. It does not replace ii. I replaces V.


Progression for you: f#dim, B7, Em, F, B7, Em

The F is clearly a flattened version of the diatonic iidim in the first repeat. It didn't replace V, it replaced ii, V is still there distinct and separate in its own right and it is heard that way.

Another example: when used as a Neapolitan 6th, the bII chord frequently serves a SUBDOMINANT function. When it doesn't, it replaces ii.

You'd have to be really into a reductive Schenkerian approach to see those 2 examples as simply dominants.




Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001198 12/18/12 02:15 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
Sorry dude, when things get antagonistic I'm no longer interested in having any further discussion.
I'm sure the OP has more than enough to mull over.
Have a nice day.


Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
Re: Help me understand this progression
AJF #2001318 12/18/12 06:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by AJF
Sorry dude, when things get antagonistic I'm no longer interested in having any further discussion.
I'm sure the OP has more than enough to mull over.
Have a nice day.

Your inability to defend your statements doesn't make them any more factual. That's where being the endorsed by a commercial brand becomes a nuisance. But for the record, the antagonism started when you typed words in CAPITAL letters and your statement that I should "see" something in a pompous manner as though it is beneath you to even back up your own thoughts with your own words.

I'm sure you are a superior pianist to me, but as somebody with equal stature on another instrument (piano being my second instrument) and theory/compositional credentials, I don't feel I need to bow to your authority. Your name carries no weight in a discussion about music theory. Precisely why I don't trade on my name - it means I must sink or swim by the arguments I present, and nothing else. It also frees me from being restricted in calling people out on their nonsense.

Somebody of your standing should well know that the function of chords that can be substituted is not cut and dried nor as simplistic as you make it. I gave two concrete examples of why you are wrong about the bII chord always being dominant in function (although there are more), I'll let them be my last word, but I would caution you to not throw your weight around as though it replaces solid information and arguments.

Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001326 12/18/12 06:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 190
J
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 190
I tried this:

I-vi-ii-V7 vs I-vi-ii-IIb(2b)

C-Am-Dm-G7 vs C-Am-Dm-Db

2b works as replacement for V7 with different mood, and 'resolves' to I

on the other hand, it also makes sense that after a sequence of 4th->4th->4th you can also play 4th and then back to the key with V7 -> I...

I didn't think it was so complicated ! :P

Re: Help me understand this progression
ando #2001330 12/18/12 06:34 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by AJF
Sorry dude, when things get antagonistic I'm no longer interested in having any further discussion.
I'm sure the OP has more than enough to mull over.
Have a nice day.

Your inability to defend your statements doesn't make them any more factual. That's where being the endorsed by a commercial brand becomes a nuisance. But for the record, the antagonism started when you typed words in CAPITAL letters and your statement that I should "see" something in a pompous manner as though it is beneath you to even back up your own thoughts with your own words.

I'm sure you are a superior pianist to me, but as somebody with equal stature on another instrument (piano being my second instrument) and theory/compositional credentials, I don't feel I need to bow to your authority. Your name carries no weight in a discussion about music theory. Precisely why I don't trade on my name - it means I must sink or swim by the arguments I present, and nothing else. It also frees me from being restricted in calling people out on their nonsense.

Somebody of your standing should well know that the function of chords that can be substituted is not cut and dried nor as simplistic as you make it. I gave two concrete examples of why you are wrong about the bII chord always being dominant in function (although there are more), I'll let them be my last word, but I would caution you to not throw your weight around as though it replaces solid information and arguments.



Wow. Talk about reading between the lines.
It seems you've got a lot to prove.
Where on earth did you get the idea I want anyone to bow to my credentials.
I'm just a jazz piano player in Toronto trying to make a living.
If you want to fabricate all this drama. Go nuts. But I have no idea where all your aggression is coming from.

If you want to think of a b2 chord as a subdominant chord then knock yourself out.
And I'll continue to think of it as a dominant function chord thanks.

There ya go OP. you've got options smile


Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001332 12/18/12 06:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by Jose Hidalgo
I tried this:

I-vi-ii-V7 vs I-vi-ii-IIb(2b)

C-Am-Dm-G7 vs C-Am-Dm-Db

2b works as replacement for V7 with different mood, and 'resolves' to I

on the other hand, it also makes sense that after a sequence of 4th->4th->4th you can also play 4th and then back to the key with V7 -> I...

I didn't think it was so complicated ! :P


That's true, but that's because it actually is in the place of the V7 in this example. If the bII is used in place of the ii chord, but still leading to V7 or other chords, it's not so simple. A bII chord will not always sound like a dominant. It depends on the situation. See the example I gave above. F#dim, B7 Em, then F, B7, Em. The ear hears the F as a separate chord from the V7 in this case. If it were a bII7, things get less clear because the b7 functions as a leading tone to the tonic. The b5 substitution was designed to have the b7 in the bII chord for this reason - because the two strongest resolving forces, the leading tone and the 7th which are in V7, are resolving to the tonic note and the 3rd of the tonic chord.

bII without the 7th is a different beast that can be used in different ways. It can replace iidim, it can extend subdominant harmony, it can prepare an augmented 6th chord. It can modulate to the major key based on b6. It's simply not true that it always has a dominant function. I don't want to confuse you with too many possibilities, but feel free to ask me about anything I've said. You are welcome to PM me with any theory questions too. I teach this stuff for a living so it's not a big deal to explain things and I'm patient about it (usually!).

Re: Help me understand this progression
AJF #2001334 12/18/12 06:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by AJF

If you want to fabricate all this drama. Go nuts. But I have no idea where all your aggression is coming from.


You're a delicate flower, Adrean. You're the one who found things too "antagonistic" to even continue the discussion. If you read that post, the only thing I said that was in any way challenging to you was the "weapons grade boloneyum" quip. I would have thought you could handle a bit of humour. Apart from that little quip, there was nothing in there to make you withdraw from the debate or get upset. The substance of that post was pure theory talk - not antagonism.




Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001363 12/18/12 07:50 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
A
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,758
Ok.
Listen Ando, I've read a lot of your posts and think your a really valuable contribution to these forums.
Obviously things took a crappy turn on this thread and we got at each others' throats a little.
If I came off as a dismissive know-it-all earlier in this thread then I apologize. That wasn't my intention. Honestly. My intention was to give the OP what I thought was valuar info. Your info was of equal or greater value as well so let's just be friends. We both love music and it seems dumb to fight over it.
Happy holidays.


Pianist, Composer
Disclaimer: Shigeru Kawai Artist
Re: Help me understand this progression
Jose Hidalgo #2001364 12/18/12 07:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,643
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,643
What's the song? It looks like a typical Dixieland Stride progression using the circle of 5ths.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Help me understand this progression
AJF #2001387 12/18/12 08:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
A
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by AJF
Ok.
Listen Ando, I've read a lot of your posts and think your a really valuable contribution to these forums.
Obviously things took a crappy turn on this thread and we got at each others' throats a little.
If I came off as a dismissive know-it-all earlier in this thread then I apologize. That wasn't my intention. Honestly. My intention was to give the OP what I thought was valuar info. Your info was of equal or greater value as well so let's just be friends. We both love music and it seems dumb to fight over it.
Happy holidays.


Ok, no problem, we have a deal.
Happy holidays to you and yours.

Re: Help me understand this progression
Dave B #2001953 12/20/12 01:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 190
J
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by Dave B
What's the song? It looks like a typical Dixieland Stride progression using the circle of 5ths.


It's a Cumbia-Rock from Argentina

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TdJpo945pXw

Re: Help me understand this progression
ando #2002165 12/20/12 01:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,543
S
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Jose Hidalgo
I think the key is Em (G)

Am D G C
F B7 Em

The F is the chord I don't understand, I would think it is a bridge to go to B7, but F is not the V of B7, it should be F#

Do you know why the F is there ?


Because music doesn't have to stay strictly in one key, it can borrow from other keys. That chord progression is undergoing a cycle (also called a circle) of 5ths. From Am, each chord is a perfect fifth lower than the previous one. This means the C chord leads to F. Eventually a cycle of perfect 5ths will lead back to E, but if the composer wanted to get there sooner, and without going through too many chords that are very distant from the key, the process has to be interrupted and brought back to the tonic chord. This has been done via a dominant V7 chord leading back to i. What you see there is basically a cycle of 5ths but not all perfect 5ths. It's a diatonic cycle of 5ths. The F going to B7 is a tritone, but even if there had been a chord built on F#, there would still have been a tritone from C to F#. What this means is that in a diatonic cycle of 5ths, you have one chord from each letter name and it leads back to the tonic. One of the jumps will be a tritone. For the purposes of analysis, the F chord is still a II chord, it's just a bII. It's just there to add a bit of spice, but apart from the root note, it still shares 2 notes of the F#dim chord, (A and C).

I'm glad you guys made up. Here's my take on this progression (which I find iiinterrresting). E minor is the tonic, the progression starts on iv then flips major and and goes cycle of fifths down to F which functions (as ando said) as a flat ii but doesn't resolve as a Neopolitan 6th would but rather moves chromatically with a tritone jump to B7 which functions as V7 of e minor. What's interesting is the chord progression seems standard but lands far afield on the F then jumps back to the dominant and resolves to the tonic. YMMV.


Steve Chandler
composer/amateur pianist

stevechandler-music.com
http://www.soundcloud.com/pantonality
http://www.youtube.com/pantonality
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Do you normally ask dealer to tune piano?
by tony3304 - 01/18/21 07:25 AM
iPad pro (2020) MIDI Output not consistent
by Almar - 01/18/21 05:33 AM
used Kawai RX-1 or new Kawai GL-30?
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/18/21 05:23 AM
Roland F701 vs FP-90X (?)
by Mulberg - 01/18/21 02:17 AM
Garritan CFX, Sustain Release Samples ???
by DigitalMusicProduc - 01/17/21 11:18 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,352
Posts3,048,320
Members100,102
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4