Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum More Sound Problems: Hammer 'Smack'

That's exactly what I had in mind. I would concede that a loose key top is a slightly deeper sound than a fingernail but they are remarkably similar, arent they?

Yes, especially ivory. You will definitely get a similar "ticking" sound when the nuts are loose on the keystop stick, although it would have slightly different timing, being more prominent on the "upstroke" of the key.

Shouldn't "technical theory and pop-quiz" questions be in the Tuner/Tech Forum? There is plenty of bickering over there and we don't need it in Piano Forum.

Exactly. It's all about tone quality and timing.

It has been said earlier in a very interesting article that piano tuners develop unusual skills. I equate this skill as not much different than an expert pest exterminator identifying different types of droppings. Very important skill but nobody does studies on that.

One of the things I learned about when I worked in software development and maintenance was a methodology for assisting in "problem determination". We were cautioned NOT to jump to any conclusions until we'd fully described the problem. Our initial conclusions were often wrong.

In any case, two of the most important questions we asked were: 1) WHEN did the problem start? and 2) "what has changed" recently?

PNO40 has provided some interesting answers to those questions.

The new symptom is a 'smacking" sound.
It started AFTER his tuner-tech "...did some surface filing of the hammers...".

Of course I can't state with certainty that this is the case, but there might well be a link between that recent hammer filing and the new noises.

I, as several others have written, think that the problem is a matter of (probably newly loosened) hammer heads and/or pinning. Even a highly skilled technician could have loosened hammer heads and/or pins in the process of doing that "surface filing". It's also possible this job was done by a technician not all that skilled. Again - we can't say for sure, because we don't know how well the hammer heads were glued, nor do we know the condition of the pinning at the start of the filing job. What we DO know, at least from PNO40's description, is that this latest problem started AFTER the filing.

Regarding the wobbly unisons -- they wobbled after this latest tuning; they wobbled on the original recordings posted by PNO40. In both cases (as I recall, and I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong), the recordings were made within a few days to a few weeks after the tuning. Unless the pins are loose on this piano, OR there were significant temperature and humidity swings, OR a lot of heavy playing done, I would expect the piano to be better in tune than it sounded in the recordings.

Not to offend, but, at this point, if it were my call, it would be to the local PTG chapter looking for another technician.

I noticed from previous threads of yours Marty that you are not above giving advice of a technical nature on this forum, despite it being completely inaccurate. Here is an example of something you recently wrote in response to a Dampp Chaser question specific to sticky keys:



So maybe, instead of chastising us for writing something of a technical nature, you should attempt to learn something from it!

Andrew, no offence taken, i have no emptional attachment to what i wrote and a second opinion is always a good idea. What you say could well be true. We don't know the presenting condition of the piano and now, not only passing judgement on the tuning, we are putting ourselves in the position of judge and jury by deciding to apportion blame because the OP noticed some things after the piano had some attention from a tuner. As we all know, many things are noticed only after a piano has been tuned. It does not necessarily follow that the problems are iatrogenic, as you so right point out.

Both you and I know a lot but if we put all we know together, we still don't know enough about pre-existing conditions. Sure, we can have an educated guess but it would not hold up before an intelligent judge.

Any intelligent judges put there?

rxd,

Could I clear something up, please?

You say that no-one can know the circumstances. I disagree. If we take the time to read, we actually know quite a lot about the circumstances.

In the opening post of this thread, there's a link to a previous thread. The OP specifically put it there for us. In short, that previous thread says that the OP bought the piano from a rebuilder in June. Original pinblock, but new strings and re-felted hammers. From the one picture that shows tuning pins, they look new too. (I might be wrong, but from all of this I would infer that the torque of the pinblock is good enough to hold a tuning.)

It was then tuned four times in the three months leading up to the previous thread. In fact, he actually lists the specifics of each tuning there. 3 of the 4 were pitch raises, the third was left at 441 Hz, and the last tuning (mid October) he described as being "quite stable overall" after a month.

There was also a video link, which showed that the piano was tuned very close to 440 Hz. To me it sounded slightly above 440.

So the tuning I was referring to earlier in this thread, was the fifth tuning in about 5 months, and given the history, I doubt that there was a significant pitch raise involved.

The unisons we heard in this thread were less than a week old.

Based on all this information I wrote that if this were my situation, I would consider to change tuners. I do not see that as a "judgement made from a point of ignorance".

(In fact, I have been brought up not to judge from an ignorant position, and I hope to live up to that standard even on an internet forum.)

Sometimes threads morph away from the original subject Marty.

I believe we are still dealing with the original post and suggestions arising from it. We just used a slightly more intriguing way of bringing things to light.

CC2,

The original posting was about the use of the Dampp Chaser system and asked for replies from people who had experience with them.

Here is my full reply, and not your edited version.



Inaccurate?

Is the Kawai composite action not another consideration?

Do you dispute that the Kawai action is known for being more trouble free in concern with swings in RH?

Would it be important to know if the tuner was also a technician?

On a three year old piano, might it not be time for a full regulation?

I offered no technical advice at all. I addressed how to approach the problem, as stated by the OP, in reference to my own experience.

I am not a piano technician. However, two of my skills are being able to read and comprehend the written word, and to play the piano at a very high level.

If anyone is interested, here is the link to the original thread.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1994488/1.html

On my former grand I had a loose lead weight in a key that made a "clicking/clunking" sound. Plus, you could feel it in the key.

One thing is for sure, there is no substitute for real-world experience when it comes to piano tech stuff...

Rick

OK Marty, let's go over this one more time, because you always insist on replying with the same defense of your original comments. The specific comment that you made, which is TOTALLY inaccurate, is:



Now, from a technical standpoint, let's analyze why I have a problem with this SPECIFIC part of your response. You state that the Kawai RX has a composite action. True enough, BUT, they still use felt bushings in the composite wippens, AND they still use wooden hammer shanks with felt bushings, all of which are just as susceptible to RH changes as traditional action parts. Secondly, Kawai actions DO NOT have composite keys.....they are WOOD, with felt balance rail and front rail bushings, which are most often the source of STICKY KEYS....which was what was being addressed in the original thread. So, I did not take you "out of context", I simply focused on the specific inaccuracies and faulty information you were conveying to the original poster. Lastly, no where on the Kawai website page where they describe the benefits of the Millenium action do they claim anything about the parts being "unaffected by humidity changes", as YOU claim. Do you know something Kawai doesn't about their product?

Thanks rxd. I pulled back the action (without taking it out of the piano) and could gain access to the hammer butt and flange easily enough. The flange screw is tight, as are the others around it. The hammer shank doesn't appear loose either (at either end), or at least there is no more 'play' in it than in those around it. As for the centre pin, I couldn't get near enough to it even see if it might be loose. The tech is scheduled to visit Friday evening, so perhaps he will see something I can't.

Thanks Dave B. There are limits to what I am prepared (=able competently and with confidence) to do to the piano, and re-glueing a hammer head is one of these. (See also above regarding the centre-pin.) I have a concert and recording tech booked in for January and I'll leave these kind of things to him. Given that he has been specifically identified for doing a full toning, I'd be surprised if he doesn't pay attention to such matters. Of course, if you are right, I'll be stuck with the 'smacking' until then, or until the head does become very loose from additional playing.

Many thanks,

P.

Thanks Mark. Unfortunately I have become used to the piano going out of tune rapidly, hence 5 tunings in 5 months--('new strings' and all that ...)-- so I'm not inclined to criticise the tuner, at least for now. Yes, the recording is a mere 72 hours after the tuning was finished, and the original post on the 'metallic' resonance was taken perhaps 5 days (max) after its previous tuning. A different tuner was involved in each case, and there was very little playing done in the intervening period, perhaps a couple of hours in total at most. In each case the humidity levels have been very constant (fluctuating between 39 and 44%RH over the period in question), so I am stuck with the (seemingly forever) 'stretching strings' hypothesis for now ... :-(

You're right Marty. There is ample bickering already in the Piano Forum, to which you yourself are not an insignificant contributor. Yet, threads have a life of their own, and I'm actually finding the ensuing discussion to be fascinating and enlightening. Certainly much more so than a dreary debate over who can say what (and how) in which forum. And to judge by Rick's contributions, even a PW moderator appears to be taking an interest in the topic, rather than taking a swipe at somebody.

Thanks Andrew. I think you may well be on to something here. My first suspicion was bad/mis filing, but your suggestion that the act of filing may have loosened the hammer sounds very plausible. It would certainly help explain the timing of the problem, even if there was a couple of hours of (smack-free) playing before the problem arose.



Thanks again Andrew. I noted above that the tuning stability is p155 poor, and that I am left clinging to the 'still stretching strings' explanation. The original recording was taken 3-5 days after tuning No.4, the second recording was take 73 hours after tuning No. 5. Each was by a different tuner. Temperature and humidity have been pretty constant, with RH swings of no more than 5% and temperature swings of 3-4 degrees in any 24 hour period and typically only 1 or 2 degrees different between what are my 'playing windows' on any give day. As for for frequent hard playing, since the arrival of my family of 'zings', the playing and practice repertoire has been kept to the extremely gentle end of the spectrum. Finally, as for the pins, the first tech's first visit involved him complimenting the torque on the pins: he was surprised to find them so snug given the age of the pin block.

Mark,

Many thanks for your observations. To have somebody critique a tuning is, I think, always of benefit to the recipient (even if it can be somewhat disheartening). An extra set of ears is not to be sniffed at, and even if it doesn't imply switching tech-tuner, it can help the client to get the best out of him/her by enabling the client to give critical feedback. For what it is worth, I don't actually think this tuning was as thorough as the previous tunings--I noticed it myself in some lower tenor chords--but given the state of the piano before his work, I was thankful to have something playable once more, even if there was/is room for improvement.

As for rxd's 'preach at your peril' maxim, I think this is highly laudable, and would love for it to be observed more thoroughly on PW--not least for the fact that it might actually reduce the volume of sermons some contributors seem to have a weakness for giving ...

It's going from bad to worse, folks ... :-(

Soon after posting the above, I sat down to try to play the piano (as opposed to opening it up to diagnose another problem) and within a few minutes discovered another 'smacking' note, this time in the mid tenor range and amongst those notes that the tech-tuner worked on with some surface filing. (Fsharp above middle C) "Andrew may well be right", I thought, "the tech may well have loosened the hammers in the course of pulling the back and filing them. I'll mention this to him when I see him tomorrow".

Yet brave soul that I am, I nevertheless carried on playing regardless, trying to ignore my latest percussive accompaniment. After about 10 minutes, the bass section apparently felt left out and decided to join in the act, as Efalt20 began to join in with its own miniature snare drum effect. However, to my knowledge, the tuner did not go near the bass section when filing, which makes me think I am looking at a more systematic (and serious) problem. The words 'lemon', 'warranty' and 'refund' are now beginning to knock round my head. What fun!! (At this point, I can only laugh as it is hard to weep when things start getting this absurd.)

P.

To my best recollection, this is the first time you've mentioned this, and I think it is something that none of us (including rxd, with all due respect to an old hand) could have anticipated - given that you spoke of "the tuner" each time, and of having "him" come back. To me, this new bit of information certainly places your previous postings in a different light.

Be that as it may, I'm not putting my upbringing, education or (alleged lack of) principles up for a second public flogging, so I'll be bowing out of this thread while I still have legs to run with.

I wish you all the best with your Blüthner. (Have you spoken to the rebuilder about these things?)