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Sound matters to me too, of course, but I can hear it when I look at the score, unless it's devilishly complicated.

Currawong,
I think that is quite an amazing learned skill which perhaps some others reading here also share. Probably a very tiny, tiny percentage of people that listen to music possess this ability.

Not surprising that most listeners haven't developed the skill. It takes time, and you need to engage with the notation in order to learn how to see what you hear, and hear what you see. More than a few pianists, I've noticed, don't so much read music as decode it - once you've worked out what the notes of a piece are, you memorise it and never look at the score again. And for some purposes that's fine. I've had people say to me "you're lucky you can read music." Well I am, and I appreciate what led me to become a musician. But Luck didn't actually teach me to read music.

Recording

I know this will sound harsh, *deleted by moderator*

You can think whatever you want, however harshly you think it, but posting a repeat of the language I've deleted will get you a vacation from posting.

I'm not a mod here or anything, but I strongly feel that such language and such attitude is nothing but worryingly awful.

There's no need for that over here. If you don't agree with Ed, by all means say so and explain why, as I've done in the past and keep doing it. If you want to harass, attack and swear there's plenty of other places to do it, but not here...

EDIT: I've just noticed that BBplayer edited foxes post in which case I'll edit his quote in mine so that it won't show anymore...

Much has been said already! Nikolas is right - it depends on the situation. Sometimes it is nice to follow the score while listening to the recording but equally, it is nice to switch off and concentrate on what you are hearing. I suppose it depends on what you you hope to gain from the experience. If you simply want to hear the music - you dont need a score. Those that say they need to see the score so that they can 'hear' it could just listen to the recording (assuming one is available). However, if you wanted to see how easy it is to play, then you would definately need the score.

Also, if you had to perfom a piece and wanted an indication of tempi etc. then you might need both. Some friends who are asked to perform a piece, will look at the score but wont listen to another persons interpretation in case it informs theirs. Others will devour as many recordings as possible while following the score in order to see how others do it.......

Foxes,
Why don't you send me a private message with your address, so I can pay you a little visit?

Ed

Ed,

Just let it be... It's not worth it!

And I can't believe that I'm saying this myself, the hot headed greek guy! :S

We Siciliani, just like you Greeks, like meeting other musicians face-to-face. It promotes understanding.

Hey, Foxes,

I'm still waiting, tough guy!

Ed

Well... I learn something everyday then. You're Sicilian?!?! Wow... brilliant!

PS. I'm waiting for the recording to post your quartet... I'm actually looking forward to it.

Hi Nikolas,

I regret the delay. My friend promised a fast turn-around on getting that tape content into digital format. So, perhaps I need to followup on the meaning of this "fast turn-around".

I am what we Americans call a first-generation Sicilian, my father having been born just outside of Palermo. I have always regretted his moving away from that part of the world.

To rephrase more aptly...

I reject the elitist associated with putting schooled, learned, sheet music based art music above naive art, simplicity, improvisation, pop or whatever. It reeks of snobbery and is an insult to anyone who has composed but not written, basically saying they're not genuinely composing.


I have a confession; I've been playing for about six years but I am so poor at reading sheet music that writing my own works up would be impractical, I feel so... small? When told I am not a "real" composer.

Of course, I get what you'll say (of course you wont say it now); I'm not a real composer, I'm still barely above beginner, I hardly have anything of value to say on the piano at this point - I call BS, I have a lot to say and I think it's beautiful.


Also, you can't regret something someone else did.

Egalitarianism is all very well, and of course no-one should be discouraged from starting composing until they acquire a full set of technical skills! But, really, there's no virtue in ignorance.



Well, are you? We're not just here to support your self-esteem you know!
Pull your finger out and improve your reading then. You're missing out on such a lot, and condemning yourself to forever re-invent the wheel instead of "standing on the shoulders of giants"! A student who builds walls around what he is prepared to learn is merely a fool to himself.

Anyway, wasn't this about how a composition should best be presented for assessment and comment? If you don't notate, I can almost guarantee your work will either be no more than a simple tune (nothing wrong with that, but what can we say about it other than "that's a nice tune"?) or will be one of those rambling improvisations with which we're all too familiar, prompting "some nice ideas, now DO something with it!"

Can there be philosophy (not just feelings) without language? Literature (not just story-telling) without writing?

Foxes,

How nice to see you back. You might start out with a formal, public apology for your unwarrented, personal insults. That would be a nice, real man gesture.

Then we can discuss the philosophy of regret, if you like.

I don't really think that this is much better than your last post. It still shows unmanagable anger, hatred and even troll idioms inside! So just quit it, will you? You're not making things better and all that you've shown is that you don't like someone elses ideas and opinions. Too bad for you, but so what?

Exalted: I'll start a new thread about your persistence to keep a close mind!

I didn't read the original response by Foxes that got deleted.

Foxes, I suggest that you don't allow yourself to get provoked by wording such as "real" Capital Title (anything), and explore what everyone in the group as a whole has to say.

I personally prefer to see a written score because I can't hear fast enough. When it's on paper I can follow and see how everything connects and where it's going. This isn't snobbery, it's a weakness.

For the rest, the only way to really tell is to have tried both of them. In the same way I can't make any pronouncements about jazz improvisation because I don't understand enough. I just have an enormous respect for them. Or - today I listened to an early performance of Ravi Shankar in honour of his passing and it had a lot to it, but I don't understand enough to say more. It's more a feeling that it's really really good.

It is unfortunate when value judgments come into the picture. Some of the people here are pros. Many of us are still learning and I don't know at what point we become "real".

I began to learn theory and be able to write down musical thoughts a few years ago. My impression is that when you can write it down and have more understanding, you can get more complex because it is written down and you have it in front of you. I don't know if more complex is necessarily better. But maybe somebody who can do good work improvising could do even better writing it down - or at least capture it on paper.

Why? "Value-judgement" isn't a dirty word. Don't people post their work here hoping for confirmation that it has value? Trouble is, some of them want us to lie :-)

This got a genuine laugh out loud!

The initial question was which we prefer, recording or scores when evaluating a new work posted here. As I stated before I believe a recording is closest to the audience experience. A piece of music should be able to stand on its own with little or no explanation. I understand that viewing a score helps see what's going on and follow the logic (or lack thereof) of the composer, but that has little to do with the experience of the music.

Then we have the discussion of through composed vs. improvised. I've done and do both, but for me improvisation is limited by my playing abilities and areas of comfort harmonically. It seems I only get creative when I make a mistake. So I prefer through composed, I feel I can make my music more dense in so many ways than I typically do when improvising.

Finally, we have Foxes outburst about writing music down and lack of sight reading ability. I also have difficulty sight reading, it's gotten better because I insist on writing my music down and then struggle to play it. There's nothing wrong with struggling to do something it means you're outside your comfort zone and that means your extending your capabilities. Eventually it makes you more knowledgeable and creative.

So what exactly were you upset about? Was it the implication that you're not a "REAL" composer? You placed that judgment on yourself by getting mad about it. My advice is learn what you need to learn in order to become the REAL composer you aspire to be. Who knows maybe you can actually make a living composing, just don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.