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Hi there, new user here and nice to meet you all, and I could use your help. What level or "grade" am I and how to move to the next level?

I've been playing the piano self taught since I was 3 years old (40 years). I took about 3 months of lessons when I was 10 and that was the end of my "formal" education. I've come to a point where I would like to truly be a concert pianist (pausing for the hysterical laughing), not for profession but for personal fulfillment. My goal is to play a real piano concerto with an orchestra.

I "classically" trained myself on Chopin, Beethoven, Bach, etc., and have played jazz, blues, ragtime, new age, and my own compositions. I stopped training when I was 18 and about 5 years ago decided to get back to my true passion seriously. Over the last two years I committed myself to rigorous training with Hanon, Czerny(sp?), scales, arpeggios, etc. The wall that I have hit is technique related. Double thirds and 6ths aren't strong, strength in 4 and 5 is terrible in my opinion (3-4 and 4-5 trills are embarrasing), left hand is weak overall. My accuracy and raw technical abilities are average but need improvement before feeling comfortable performing something like the Grieg Concerto with orchestra. Someday I WILL tackle the Rach 3 but I have a long way to go I think!

Some of the more challenging pieces I play acceptably, but not to "professional standards" (again with the quotes!) include:
Chopin Preludes, Waltz C#m, Nocturne Eb, Etude E, Polonaise A, Fantasie Impromptu
Liszt Standchen/Swanensang
Mendelssohn Songs without words: Hunting Song, Departure, Boat songs. etc.
Rachmaninoff Preludes C#m and Gm
Beethoven Moonlight Sonata (3rd mvt little rough still)
Grieg Piano Concerto 1st & 2nd - not sure I'm ready for 3rd.

I wouldn't win any piano competitions but people often beg me to play and enjoy my recitals. ;-)

My question here is a sincere one to help me refine my personal learning plan. Do I just keep slogging away at these excercises, practicing repitoire, and learning new pieces? Is there a faster way? Are there non-standard learning/practice techniques I should be incorporating that would be more efficient to help me with my accuracy, rate of learning, and overall polish? Should I just go pick up a Grade 3 book and start all over? (it HAS crossed my mind!)

I know I could benefit from lessons now that I have the patience in my old age, but my professional schedule makes that mostly impossible, and I don't have access to the folks at universities that I believe would most benefit me.

I don't really have any videos of my playing to post, I see that people like to use those on this forum - sorry.

Any tricks, tips, ideas are greatly appreciated. Thank you!

"Level" really has little meaning in light of the fact that there are different grading systems in different countries and even different grading criteria within different conservatories in the same country.

I would think, in spite of the fact that you say your schedule does not allow for lessons, that that is the only way that you can make any progress at this point. With only three months of lessons when you were ten, it's frightening to think of all the "bad habits" you might have learned and which might be the very reason you are hitting a wall at the moment. A teacher who can both see and hear how you play will have infinitely more practical suggestions and a plan of action than those of us who have to take your post at face value and make suggestions based on what we think you might need without hearing you play.

As for playing with an orchestra, I hope you are saving your pennies; hiring an orchestra is an expensive proposition, as I am sure you will realize. I won't touch the comment about wanting to be "a concert pianist" at this stage.

Regards,

I think you're going to have a tough time getting a "straight" answer on this, because we cannot evaluate your performances. Bruce's comments are dead-on, and probably the best answer you'll get.

If you can post a video and/or recording of you playing, we may be able to go a little further with the discussion.

If you tell us what area you live in, there are members here who can help you teacher-search.

If you have time to practice you have time to take lessons even if just once a month.

Thanks for each of you taking the time to share your answers. I guess I will have to look elsewhere for the information and assistance I seek.

Kindest Regards,

Doug

Welcome to the forum, Doug!

I agree with pianovloverus, and here's my "tough love" approach to your question:

If you don't feel you have time for lessons, then you don't really have the level of commitment you need to get significantly better. A good plan with the right teacher is exactly what you need in your musical development now, whether that leads you to the concert hall or not.

-Jason

I agree with all of the above comments; just because you can "play" these pieces doesn't mean you're playing them well or correctly. A teacher would be a better gauge on that.

It would great to ask a simple question and get a simple answer. Right?

I lurked without the desire to join this or any other forum because of all the "we have to see this" and "you can't" or "you shouldn't", blah, blah, blah. The one that irks me the most is what just happened here: I asked a question and got a non-answer.

The plain truth is I have accomplished a tremendous amount of piano training on my own and have no desire to have my time wasted by teachers who don't know how to take me to the next level. And persnickety comments like "pianoloverus'" above are not helpful or productive and simply waste everyone's time. I wish I had time to waste but I don't.

So in the spirit of efficient use of time, mine and yours, one last try here to connect with mature people that may read this and are willing to provide constructive technique feedback rather than excuses. If this isn't you, please don't bother replying.

Assuming that I perform the above pieces without memory slips for audiences of 20 to 50 people, and they are performed in such a way that the audience and I enjoy the experience but not at a "professional level" (missed notes, a little muddy, but good musicality) what grade is that equivalent to? 1? 3? 6? 9? other? And with that information, what techniques outside of standard training regiments as suggested on these and other forums would be the best use of my time to achieve stronger technique on the path to playing more serious pieces? Without having a better grasp of grade or level, it is difficult to choose which projects to work on next.

Just more scales & arpeggios forever? some kind of finger strengthening device or workout routine? Tausig? Other?

Again, the responses above for the most part are a BIG turn off. They are not helpful. Look, I understand many of you are younger people, piano teachers, or just very proud of your hard earned skills. I see that a couple of you believe you have the best intentions, thank you. But I am after constructive, helpful information.

Please just simply answer the questions, or don't... Thank you.

(A) You are around grade 6 or 7.
(B) I know of no technical exercises, pieces, books or videos that are likely to get you pass the wall you have hit.

DameMyra,

Thank you for your answers, you are very kind! This is very helpful to point me at appropriate pieces to work on!

If anyone has feedback on the effectiveness of Tausig exercizes, that would be greatly appreciated as well.

Cheers,

Doug

Five people basically told you exactly the same thing. You don't seem to understand what's involved in learning how to play the piano, why teachers are important, and that virtually no one gets even moderately good p;ayong classical piano with only three months of lessons and figuring the rest by themselves. It's naive to think you can figure everything out by yourself. None of the technical things you mention are worthwhile unless done correctly.

I was simply pointing out that if you have time to practice even just one hour a day you certainly have time to take a one hour lesson each month. In fact, if you're short of time you're wasting a incredible amount with your current methods. The "faster way" is what everyone suggested.

pianoloverus,

you are very wise and I am very dumb. Perhaps your time is better spent commenting to people of your level. Thanks.

Couple things. Anyone responding typically has your best interests in mind, and genuinely wants to help. They are providing the reasons why there is an insubstantial amount of information available to provide that help, and in many cases, why that information is needed.

Here is an example: I once played an absolutely horrible rendition of the Moonlight Sonata's 3rd mvt at a piano show in one of America's largest malls. There was a crowd of around 300 people by the time I was done. By the applause, you would have thought I was Liszt reincarnated. But the performance itself was horrible, though I missed few notes, and only had a few "other issues". At the time, my skills were not sufficient to play that particular piece. So, all the pieces could be there: your skill, your audience, a nice applause, a general appreciation, but there is such a wide range that this information can fall under that it is impossible to determine with any accuracy. Anyone telling you different is lying to your face (or your avatar).

Second, if you don't like people asking for more information before attempting to provide as accurate an answer as they can, then you should reconsider asking the question in the first place. Everyone here is actually trying to help, whereas you seem to honestly want as superficial and meaningless an answer as possible.

Here's another example: last week, I heard a teenager play Chopin's Scherzo No 2. He was self-taught, and at the end of the piece, was asked to play another, so he played Liszt's Mephisto Waltz. He trained since the age of six. The people clapped. What level is this person at?

Meaningless answer: those pieces are at "grade 10" (or whatever), so that is the level this person is at. (Anyone can look this up online. It doesn't take an expert.)

Real answer: the person was probably closer to grade 5-6, because their technical facility and understanding of the music was not on par with the pieces he chose to play. Despite getting a generally positive reaction from the audience, and being asked to play more than one piece, he was not, under any circumstances, able to play at that level. But I would not know that without having heard him play and watched his hands move. It would be absolutely impossible to tell from the little information given.


Now, I think your real question (inbetween thoughts of playing with an orchestra and tackling the Rach 3) is this:

The answer, unfortunately, is that it is impossible to say for certain. We have no idea how well you play, what technique issues you may have, what exercises would help the most, or what direction to take your training in. You're hitting a wall. This, we know. But without knowing what caused you to hit the wall, we cannot give advice that would be at all meaningful.

If you just want someone to say, "You know what? Go play scales. That'll do the trick." Then, by all means, go play scales. That'll do the trick.

But if you want an honest answer, and one that is actually meaningful to your training, you have to consider being more open when others ask for more information. The people asking aren't the bad guys--they're the ones trying to help. If they had no intention to help, they would not have replied to the thread.

EDIT: Don't betray their willingness to help by being unwilling to listen to the answer.

Even if we heard performances and the OP gave much more information I think the answers would be less that what would be learned in the first one hour with a good teacher. The learning has to be an ongoing process with communication between the teacher and student.

Learning how to get better is much more complex then when someone posts a specific piece and asks for suggestions on that piece.

Doug, we're trying to help you here.

You don't want to waste time, neither do we.

Getting a teacher who can truly assess your playing and correct any mistakes you have is the best way to save time. Learning psychology techniques for efficient practicing saves time.

Let me illustrate the answer to your question for you:

In ABRSM, the Moonlight Sonata levels are as follows (approx):

1st movt - Level 5/6

2nd movt - Level 7

3rd movt - DipABRSM (This is the diploma, after the last level.)

In RCM, the entire Moonlight Sonata can be played in the ARCT exam, which comes after the last level.

ABRSM has 8 levels and RCM has 10 levels.

You're allowed to substitute performer level pieces for grade 10 pieces in the grade 10 exam.

You can decide where you stand.

Keep in mind that at the performer levels (DipABRSM and ARCT), the examiners take into account your interpretation and quality of touch/tone of your playing.

This part of your post hit home with me as I was also teaching myself and then decided I had hit a wall. You are clearly much further along than I was (and much younger!) but you seem to be asking that key question: Do you just continue to increase the quantity of your repertoire and the slow improvement in quality that comes with it or is it time to make a change and work directly on improving the quality of your playing.

I came to realize that all the time I was putting into practice was much more valuable than the cost of hiring a teacher. So I got a teacher and must say I was somewhat surprised at what she teaches me. Quite a lot of it has to do with how I move my body and contact the keys, and how those things change depending upon the nature of the piece I am learning. She has me change things that don't make much sense initially and are very hard to do, but three or four weeks later I start to notice their effect on my playing and by that I don't mean the keys I hit or the rhythm, but the sound I am producing.

I don't pretend to know if your circumstances are at all like mine, so don't take this as advice, rather just one more data point for your consideration. Good luck to you.

Doug, try posting this on the Adult Beginner Forum. We folks there are friendly and many are self teaching. You have a good chance of getting advice there.

Great post Derulux!!

I'll tell you personal anecdote.

Honesty, having a good teacher is the best way to improve as a MUSICIAN. Do you honestly think that people go to conservatories are stupid? Those people are the one's who end up becoming becoming concert pianists. That's mostly because of the high quality of teaching offered and the environment as well. All of the great pianists have had teachers for a long time, who guided them musically and technically.

Now if you want to ignore everyone's advice, I'll answer your question, use this link . It is syllabus for the trinity college london diploma exams. I'd suggest you try a few more pieces from the ATCL repertoire for a year, but avoid Chopin's 3rd ballade(I don't understand why it is there). However, using this won't remove your technique hitting the wall.

Thank you all sincerely for your input. There are some useful pointers here that I will take to heart. As I stated in my first post, lessons at this point are simply out of the question for me. If I were taking productive lessons at this point, I would not have felt the need to reach out here and ask these particular questions.

I recognize how easy it might be to confuse my questions as useless but I am simply trying to get expert opinions to gauge where I might best focus my efforts. I also recognize that those intelligent and talented people who have gone to conservatories and or dedicated their lives to some form of formal music training have worked hard to most likely make music their profession.

This is not my destiny. I simply have a 12 hour a day job and travel over 100K miles per year. However the piano is my meditation, stress relief and passion. It is a passion I will continue to develop in my own way, and I had a few moments to reach out here to ask for help.

For anyone who still has any patience left to provide feedback to me, here is a list of the main issues I struggle with:

- Left hand needs strengthening? - rapid triplet chords sometimes end up being "doublets" (cheating with the right hand). Practicing slow, fast, LH only seems fine. BUT, when bringing some pieces up to tempo with RH, brain goes haywire. Dexterity? Technique? Strength? Psychological? All?

- Also left hand double 3rds get lazy/muddy. My solution is to just keep practicing double 3rd scales... should I be doing something else? strengthening grip? mental play? Tausig?

- I would like to know the keyboard better for accuracy in jumps. I do eyes closed jump exercizes RH c4-c5-c4-c5#-c4-d5-c4, etc. through c7. LH opposite. I feel this is helpful and should propbably be doing this with chords... but I just don't know.

- trills 3-4 and 4-5. More Hanon? Just do trills for 10min per day? strength exercizes? Other?

Again, thank you for the pointers.

Cheers.