 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
21 members (cmoody31, dh371, Fried Chicken, 20/20 Vision, AlkansBookcase, admodios, clothearednincompo, crab89, 5 invisible),
1,234
guests, and
304
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
500 Post Club Member
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961 |
Hello All, and an early Merry Christmas. Question: has anybody here compiled a list of favorite or even not-favorite ghosting techniques? I've evolved some ideas of my own and copied or outright stolen a few from others ;-) but am always stoked to pick up new info.
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087 |
Ghosting is a beginner's technique. You should work towards hearing beating coincidental partials on their own. The reason being, ghosting only works when the ghost note is very very close in frequency to the frequency of each coincidental partial. This is not always the case. Especially with pianos that are more out of tune, or intervals that are beating fast.
Maybe I misunderstood your question since you are a member of MPT. Did you mean "aural checks" instead of "ghosting"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961 |
Thanks for your reply. I'm using the word to represent in this case the very subtle nuanced overall sound that a finely tuned instrument will display....its not something that I'd equate with beginner tuning. For instance, using either the una corda or even the damper lift to allow the chosen interval to speak only very slightly, to build tonality beyond the more obvious checks.
I think many tuners develop this around favorite interval checks but generally its something that more advanced tuners learn through allowing, indeed making, the instrument ring and speak in almost whispered tones...hence "ghosting". Perhaps others use different terms to describe such as "tests" etc. It wouldn't be something that easily falls into the hands of beginning tuners but I'm betting perhaps if I voiced the question asking for favorite advanced interval checks I might have received more replies.
I guess "aural checks" as you suggested, but I'm specifically looking for the planned leaking (for lack of a better term) of certain chords or notes that would tend to be revealing overall wellness of a tuning.
Thank you once again for your reply.
Last edited by RPD; 12/09/12 06:56 AM.
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 733
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 733 |
Start the list!
I don't use ghosting but maybe I should. What is your favorite technique. ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087 |
Yes, please send us some examples.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828 |
I agree, start the list. I don't use ghosting either and I've tuning for over 44 years, almost 39 of them, full time. But, I do enjoy watching a good scary movie with a few ghosts in them! 👽
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961 |
Hey Jer!
Well, for those who don't know me, I certainly don't profess to have special or little known secrets or anything...but manage to schedule 25 or so pianos a week and things just evolve over the decades....one simple one I use alot is playing the octave in the bass and opening up the 5 th without striking the note....the resonance (which "ghosts" if you abruptly silence the octave notes ) becomes in some way a test without playing the note....easier in the arm too after a long day!
Another idea: Bill Bremmer's octave fifth but on pianos without a sostunetto use the damper pedal and light up two octaves below the tuned note and the fifth...it rings beautifully going up into the high treble and helps quickly dial in the note...
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828 |
I was expecting you to go BOO Rick! Haha. Just having a little fun with you Rick. ðŸ˜
If a piano is properly tuned, you should be able to open up a chord, say, a C chord without actually striking the notes to the strings. Play the surrounding chords and those notes will sound through when the others are silenced. The piano has a boogie man in it!
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961 |
I was expecting you to go BOO Rick! Haha. Just having a little fun with you Rick. ðŸ˜
If a piano is properly tuned, you should be able to open up a chord, say, a C chord without actually striking the notes to the strings. Play the surrounding chords and those notes will sound through when the others are silenced. The piano has a boogie man in it! Booooo! 
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
6000 Post Club Member
|
|
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828 |
💀ðŸƒim running away now!
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961 |
💀ðŸƒim running away now! 
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
3000 Post Club Member
|
|
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087 |
Hey Jer!
Well, for those who don't know me, I certainly don't profess to have special or little known secrets or anything...but manage to schedule 25 or so pianos a week and things just evolve over the decades....one simple one I use alot is playing the octave in the bass and opening up the 5 th without striking the note....the resonance (which "ghosts" if you abruptly silence the octave notes ) becomes in some way a test without playing the note....easier in the arm too after a long day!
Another idea: Bill Bremmer's octave fifth but on pianos without a sostunetto use the damper pedal and light up two octaves below the tuned note and the fifth...it rings beautifully going up into the high treble and helps quickly dial in the note... I think I know what you are talking about, but I don't use it because sympathetic vibration is not accurate enough. I.e. The ghosted note's frequency need only be close to that of the exciting partials, in order to ring. But please explain in more detail with note numbers. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
7000 Post Club Member
|
|
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439 |
Did Stephen King finally pass his PTG exam?
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
500 Post Club Member
|
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944 |
Maybe the word "ghosting" is too limiting. At the risk of semantic abuse  , and though any word can take on a double meaning (or become a Monty Python-esk epithet)... how about referring to the word as coupling, rather than just ghosting. I think the phenomenon of "coupling" is wider than that one instance ghosting refers to.(at least that's my subjective understanding of the word.) Bill Bremmer's octave and multi-octave stretches, and I think Virgil Smith's in his own way are working this coupling phenomenon. Working with the dampers up or multi- octave/fifth sostenuto held, especially in the treble, but also in the bass helps. In the high treble, open up octaves/fifths below, looking for the note being tuned to become most present. In the low bass, playing double/triple-octave and octave fifths and adjusting the low bass note till the sound fills out, or until the 3rds begin sounding in those octave/octave fifth combos(this, though the 3rds are damped and not actively engaged)...etc For me one of the most useful and enjoyable ways of listening to what you are doing, and knowing when the whole sound is "locking in", is being aware of the whole ringing gestahlt, not just simple single partial matches. Jim Ialeggio
Last edited by jim ialeggio; 12/09/12 11:54 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
For me one of the most useful and enjoyable ways of listening to what you are doing, and knowing when the whole sound is "locking in", is being aware of the whole ringing gestahlt, not just simple single partial matches. One of the differences between aural and machine tuning. Machine is intrinsically analytic (breaking the whole down into parts) and aural is more oriented to the quality of the whole. (Not saying that aural tuners can't analyze and machine tuners can't think of the whole - just how the different techniques are predisposed.) Interesting you use the term "locked in". That's the term that I used to describe my tunings after adopting Virgil Smith's techniques. I was never happy with my tunings until then.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961 |
[quote]
Interesting you use the term "locked in". That's the term that I used to describe my tunings after adopting Virgil Smith's techniques. I was never happy with my tunings until then.
Its Virgil and his approach, with DVD et al that has also been hugely inspiring to me also!
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218
5000 Post Club Member
|
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,218 |
A gentleman wrote to the forum, regarding ghostly playing of his very old grand during the night. He denied having a cat, and thought it was actually a ghost. I thought rats were more likely than a haunted piano.
Clef
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,998
5000 Post Club Member
|
|
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,998 |
Would one of you kind folks mind explaining what this ghosting technique involves?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,740
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,740 |
Would one of you kind folks mind explaining what this ghosting technique involves? Using sympathetic ringing of partials of related notes in order to help the tuning process. The sustenuto pedal is especially useful using this technique. It can be very helpful at times, especially in the bass on short pianos. At least, that is how I rarely use them. Others will chime in I'm sure. Regards.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,677
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,677 |
Maybe the word "ghosting" is too limiting. At the risk of semantic abuse , and though any word can take on a double meaning (or become a Monty Python-esk epithet)... how about referring to the word as coupling, rather than just ghosting. I think the phenomenon of "coupling" is wider than that one instance ghosting refers to.(at least that's my subjective understanding of the word.) Bill Bremmer's octave and multi-octave stretches, and I think Virgil Smith's in his own way are working this coupling phenomenon. Working with the dampers up or multi- octave/fifth sostenuto held, especially in the treble, but also in the bass helps. In the high treble, open up octaves/fifths below, looking for the note being tuned to become most present. In the low bass, playing double/triple-octave and octave fifths and adjusting the low bass note till the sound fills out, or until the 3rds begin sounding in those octave/octave fifth combos(this, though the 3rds are damped and not actively engaged)...etc For me one of the most useful and enjoyable ways of listening to what you are doing, and knowing when the whole sound is "locking in", is being aware of the whole ringing gestahlt, not just simple single partial matches. Jim Ialeggio Unfortunately there are some yahoos on here that might just have a little fun with the "coupling" concept as you anticipated. Thank goodness I'm not one of them! No sir! Not me! I could only think of a couple of lame wisecracks, so I'll bow out. I do make some limited use of what you are discussing (I think), but I tend to use it on really high quality grands in the high treble.
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,384
Posts3,349,164
Members111,630
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
