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After struggling at my piano teacher's studio on one particular piece she assigned me for three lessons (which I played well at home) I think I discovered the reason. Could it be that the sharps on my piano (a newer Ritmuller Grand) are narrower than her older upright?
Just wondering.
Jonathan
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There is no standard for key width or length, so yes, it is possible that they are slightly different.
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The spacing between the sharps, particularly in the groups of three is, indeed problematic for some pianists on some pianos. And often we, as technicians, simply have to do something about it, particularly when faced with an emotionally immature pianist who might be refusing to play an otherwise world class piano.
This subject has come up before and I am surprised than nobody has yet mentioned this fix, it being so readily apparent an' all. You will find evidence of it on many concert pianos.
The easiest way is to alter the spacing of every F# and Bb in the appropriate direction. Any competent technician knows how to do this without damaging anything and it can be done in just a few minutes in pianos where the underside of the keys is readily accessible.
Yes. It makes the location of these particular notes a bit offset looking in their slots between the white keys as simplistic pedants will be quick to point out. It is a trade off depending on whether the piano is to be played or looked at. This adjustment is, of course, completely reversible for those whose priorities are less practical.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Not sure what problems your struggling with? When you become used to playing the same piano with constant seat height and keyboard height, it can be difficult to adjust to different seat and keyboard height combination.
"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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rxd is talking about the spacing between the sharps (it's always narrower between the F#/G#/A# than between C#/D#). Jonathan may be talking about the width of the sharps on their tops, finding it difficult to land on the key. Can you clarify?
Another variance is the height of the sharps above the naturals.
--Cy--
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What I struggle with on my instructor's piano is fitting my middle finger between a couple of sharps when playing a few chords on some pieces.
Playing the sharps is not an issue.
The height might be different, but I have not noticed that.
Thanks for the replies,
Jonathan
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Jonathan,
Are you referring to something like an E-flat major chord where the middle finger G falls between two black keys? (Eb-G-Bb)
The width, or the exact pyramid shape of the black keys, is not standard from piano make to piano make. It could even be different on models from the same manufacturer. There really is no mechanical solution since the problem is playing your teacher's piano and not your own.
I would suggest discussing this with your teacher. It may be an issue with your hand placement when playing in various keys. This could be a valuable learning experience about how to adapt to differing keyboards.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Are you referring to something like an E-flat major chord where the middle finger G falls between two black keys? (Eb-G-Bb)
Yes - this is what is happening. I did mention it at my last lesson - I will let her know my findings at my next lesson to see what she recommends. Thanks, Jonathan
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Are you referring to something like an E-flat major chord where the middle finger G falls between two black keys? (Eb-G-Bb)
Yes - this is what is happening. I did mention it at my last lesson - I will let her know my findings at my next lesson to see what she recommends. Interesting. Have you checked all the spaces between the sharps on your piano? I have just done this on mine by sliding my middle finger, flat on the white key, into them. They vary. My finger goes into some and catches on the first joint on others. I suppose the narrower spaces could be widened slightly by spacing the outer sharps but, as Marty says, one has to adapt to different pianos.
Last edited by Withindale; 12/09/12 03:20 PM. Reason: "spacing"
Ian Russell
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It is not that the width of the black keys varies, it is the placement of the tails of the white keys.
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Whatever the cause, you will encounter variations from piano to piano. So it's best to learn how to adjust your playing to make it work for you, which may mean avoiding certain key signatures or pieces in the case where your fingers are too large to fit between black keys.
private piano/voice teacher FT ![[Linked Image]](https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/gallery/42/thumbs/2529.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/9342.png)
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I suppose the narrower spaces could be widened slightly by easing the outer sharps but, as Marty says, one has to adapt to different pianos.
I have not made myself quite clear. The additional space is definately not achieved by 'easing' the keys.. . That would just make them sloppy. As I said, an 'experienced' tech would know how to do this in the usual manner of spacing keys. There are compensatory adjustments and there are limits to this that a tech with an understanding of the gestalt of a piano action will grasp. Yes, it is a difficulty that the OP's own piano is fine but your teachers piano gives you a problem. You are being told, in so many words, 'live with it' or adapt your technique to it, which could be dangerous to the musculature of somebody with wide fingers. I belong to a branch of my profession that never says 'live with it' without good reason... Really good reason ...yet the consensus here is for you to make the necessary hand contortions to accommodate an unusual keyboard configuration. There are many pianists who have very wide fingers and those manufacturers who don't consider this at all. It is often reasons like this why a perfectly good piano is not selected by a good player simply because the keyboard is uncomfortable to play. The whole ludicrous situation in the profession and trade reminds me of an hilarious joke but it's not PC so I can't repeat it. It is unfortunate enough that we have to use a standard length of octave. Curiously enough, one of the few manufacturers who have experimented with shortening the length of the octave is the very one that at the time, was gaining a stranglehold on the concert market and has since hung on to it. The fact that it didn't take on has nothing to do with the fact that they did at least try to accommodate requests from their players as they have dealt with this particular problem. Thank you for bringing this subject up. True, there is no standard but piano builders can look to manufacturers who don't present this problem to players and follow their lead.
Last edited by rxd; 12/09/12 02:57 PM.
Amanda Reckonwith
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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I have not made myself quite clear. The additional space is definately not achieved by 'easing' the keys.. . That would just make them sloppy. As I said, an 'experienced' tech would know how to do this in the usual manner of spacing keys. There are compensatory adjustments and there are limits to this that a tech with an understanding of the gestalt of a piano action will grasp.
Yes, it is a difficulty that the OP's own piano is fine but your teachers piano gives you a problem.
You are being told, in so many words, 'live with it' or adapt your technique to it, which could be dangerous to the musculature of somebody with wide fingers. I belong to a branch of my profession that never says 'live with it' without good reason... Really good reason ...yet the consensus here is for you to make the necessary hand contortions to accommodate an unusual keyboard configuration.
There are many pianists who have very wide fingers and those manufacturers who don't consider this at all. It is often reasons like this why a perfectly good piano is not selected by a good player simply because the keyboard is uncomfortable to play. The whole ludicrous situation in the profession and trade reminds me of an hilarious joke but it's not PC so I can't repeat it.
It is unfortunate enough that we have to use a standard length of octave. Curiously enough, one of the few manufacturers who have experimented with shortening the length of the octave is the very one that at the time, was gaining a stranglehold on the concert market and has since hung on to it. The fact that it didn't take on has nothing to do with the fact that they did at least try to accommodate requests from their players as they have dealt with this particular problem.
Thank you for bringing this subject up. True, there is no standard but piano builders can look to manufacturers who don't present this problem to players and follow their lead.
So what do you suggest, that the teacher pay to adjust her piano to accommodate one student's issues? What if by doing that it causes issues for her other students with smaller hands? What if it is more a matter of personal preference, or inability on the part of the student to adjust to the different feel and it's not a matter of his fingers not fitting? Really, if it is a case of the latter, then the teacher knows the problem and can consider that when listening to the student. More often than not, a student will complain about a teacher's piano no matter how good it is because it's not what they practiced on and are accustomed to. A good teacher understands this and can tell when a student has practiced and is struggling with dealing with the instrument vs. just not being able to play something.
Last edited by Morodiene; 12/09/12 03:17 PM.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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So, if I understand what the tech from across the pond is saying, Jonathan should insist that his teacher buy a new piano for his use at lessons. You are being told, in so many words, 'live with it' or adapt your technique to it, which could be dangerous to the musculature of somebody with wide fingers. ...yet the consensus here is for you to make the necessary hand contortions to accommodate an unusual keyboard configuration.
Obviously from someone who doesn't play the piano and certainly not a piano teacher. There is nothing "ludicrous" about discussing proper hand position and technique for playing in various keys. I look forward to an analysis of the "unusual keyboard configuration" of the instructor's piano. Perhaps something with only white keys would be preferable?
Marty in Minnesota
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I have not made myself quite clear. The additional space is definately not achieved by 'easing' the keys.. . That would just make them sloppy. As I said, an 'experienced' tech would know how to do this in the usual manner of spacing keys. There are compensatory adjustments and there are limits to this that a tech with an understanding of the gestalt of a piano action will grasp. So what do you suggest, that the teacher pay to adjust her piano to accommodate one student's issues? First, I missed your original post, rxd, partly because Jonathan's agreement to Marty's clarification of the problem seemed to follow on from Jonathan's original question. No matter, what you said was perfectly clear. Second, there are at least three Bb keys and the odd F# on my piano which could be spaced a bit. The outer gaps, Bb-B and and F-F#, are a bit wider than the ones on the other side of the sharp in each case. If I were a teacher, I would have these adjustments made once I was made aware of the problem.
Last edited by Withindale; 12/09/12 04:30 PM.
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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Yes, Ian, I have often seen this on pianos, even some of the 'best'. Very often the G# can be more central in its slot also. Sorry for the confusion there.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Marty and Morodiene,
I seem have rattled some cages here. I read a lot of jumping to conclusions, pitiful attempts at reduction to the absurd, (such a common cheap arguing technique, it has a Latin name) and attempts to put words into my mouth.
Neither of you are giving me anything of substance to either agree with or refute, just vague accusations.
Please consider your arguments, express them cogently and with less emotion-driven language, remember you are volunteering to represent the teachers' angle here, so think of your colleagues, represent them well and I, in turn, will gladly give you more of my time.
Remember we are dealing with a not uncommon subject of thicker than average fingers here.
Last edited by rxd; 12/09/12 04:58 PM.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Want to see plenty of space between keys? Check out a Bluthner. Skinny black keys, low action.
The gap between keys is an issue for lots of pianists and is a deal-breaker for many trying out pianos. Same goes for key height.
I used to hate my dad's old 1910 Heintzman because the gaps were too small. The Pischna contracted chromatic exercises weren't do-able at all.
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Just to clarify, I am NOT complaining about my instructor's instrument. I was just wondering if I could be correct in my conclusion that key spacing can be different.
Thanks for all the attention to my question.
Morodiene could be correct as I am a low intermediate pianist and could possibly just be struggling with an instrument that is different from my own.
Jonathan
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rxd,
No, I didn't put words into your mouth - I quoted your hyperbole.
A simple question was asked by Jonathan; "Could it be that the sharps on my piano (a newer Ritmuller Grand) are narrower than her older upright?" The consensus answer was simply; "Yes."
How to approach the situation is best left to a discussion with the teacher. It needn't be a harangue about altering the geometry of the keyboard or of unusual and contrived hand positioning at the keyboard. In the example chord I chose, it might be as simple as altering the depth of the strike point of the thumb on the Eb.
How on earth would you know the thickness of Jonathan's fingers?
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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