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#1995723 - 12/07/12 01:51 AM Rapidvoicer.com?  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
rysowers Offline
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rysowers  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Olympia, WA
I just noticed this site advertised in the latest PTG Journal. Looks like some quick & dirty voicing tools sold at a premium. The videos did not impress me very much with the so-called improvement.

From the look of the tools, I imagine one of the techniques is to scratch with a dental tool in the string grooves to reduce some of the stridency in the tone. Of course you can buy a dental scraper for a few bucks at Harbor Freight.

He doesn't disclose very much about how this revolutionary system works - I guess you have to pay $150 for the webinar to find out. Hmmmm....

I'd be curious at what others make of this -

http://rapidvoicer.com/

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_z15-ymxIhM[/video]


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
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#1995725 - 12/07/12 01:59 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
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beethoven986 Offline
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beethoven986  Offline
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I saw this in the Journal as well. My impression was the same as yours.

#1995877 - 12/07/12 10:56 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 217
David, OHIO Offline
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David, OHIO  Offline
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Posts: 217
Coshocton, Ohio
Not impressed with the video either. The results are marginal using the usual tools that most voicing technicians already have. To me the result appears to be the same if I were to do a touch up voicing on a worn strike point just to break the percussive and unpleasant hammer strike without the needed filing. The tools are worth it if the voicer has the experienced ear and knows where to place the pick. String to hammer mating should be discussed as well.


David Chadwick RPT
Coshocton, Ohio
1931 Mason Hamlin AA
#1995888 - 12/07/12 11:25 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Mar 2008
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Olek Offline
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Olek  Offline
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France
This is not voiced.. Just broken so the tuning does not hurt.

The problem is about knowing what is a good piano tone made of.

But the guy seem to believe in what he say that may be an advantage...

Playing scales with sustain pedal is the oldest trick from pianoI dealers to sell pianos not prepared or with a harsh tone.. Which is the case of that Yamaha. noisy and percussive damped by near crown needling.. Close tone. No elasticity.


Professional of the profession.
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#1995995 - 12/07/12 03:06 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Apr 2007
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rysowers Offline
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rysowers  Offline
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Olympia, WA
I'm glad we got this discussion going, so at least if someone searches the web for more information they will find some alternative information. It could save a few people some money!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2174447 - 10/30/13 05:05 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: David, OHIO]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
studio43 Offline
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studio43  Offline
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Ohio
David, This is that guy in the video this thread is about....

This method is not scraping in the grooves or a pre voicing, it is actually using a high quality tool to needle into the hammers. it is much like a glovers needle. It can not be performed the same as with traditional needles as well as with this tool that my mentor found and developed.

He has been using it for 30 years and has probable voiced tens of thousands of pianos. Far more than any average technician. If you don't try it or use it, you can not make an educated comment. That's all, just try it. The tool kit is about $150.00 but the book and DVD are available on Amazon for $29.99 and I have since published a Kindle version for much less. https://www.createspace.com/4038498

Also, its just what I said above, you can't really know until you try it. If you want to read what those technicians have said who have tried this, read it here..... They tell the true story.

http://www.pianotunertools.com/pages/testimonials




Eric Michael Roberts
www.springboropianoservices.com
#2174457 - 10/30/13 05:23 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Jul 2009
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studio43 Offline
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studio43  Offline
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Ohio
Ryan,

There is no scraping involved in our Rapid Voicer technique.

It is similar to voicing needles but different and woks well when applied to the strike point.

Here, I show it up close
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxw4t_ClpCY&feature=share&list=UUr6Y5-1vlbLl4sOa91JpVDQ

or you can see more at the actual web site under videos http://www.pianotunertools.com





Eric Michael Roberts
www.springboropianoservices.com
#2174460 - 10/30/13 05:26 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
studio43 Offline
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studio43  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8
Ohio
Ryan,

You are correct, this is a dental type tool but is a professional grade... In development I tried that cheap stuff from Harbor and it is not sharp enough or strong enough.

The Rapid Voicer is Dr. Grade, will not dull, can't be cut through with a saw type stuff. It is sharper than a needle and it is a must to do the technique.

I can bend and cut that Harbor Freight stuff in a few seconds....

Also, my mentor made some specific additions to the tool to make it work for this application and it is all explained in our web site and tutorials. Hope this helps.

http://www.pianotunertools.com




Eric Michael Roberts
www.springboropianoservices.com
#2174475 - 10/30/13 06:12 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: studio43]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,652
kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,652
Michigan
Originally Posted by studio43
David, This is that guy in the video this thread is about....

This method is not scraping in the grooves or a pre voicing, it is actually using a high quality tool to needle into the hammers. it is much like a glovers needle. It can not be performed the same as with traditional needles as well as with this tool that my mentor found and developed.

He has been using it for 30 years and has probable voiced tens of thousands of pianos. Far more than any average technician. If you don't try it or use it, you can not make an educated comment. That's all, just try it. The tool kit is about $150.00 but the book and DVD are available on Amazon for $29.99 and I have since published a Kindle version for much less. https://www.createspace.com/4038498

Also, its just what I said above, you can't really know until you try it. If you want to read what those technicians have said who have tried this, read it here..... They tell the true story.

http://www.pianotunertools.com/pages/testimonials


I have no doubt that it has an effect which in many cases may be beneficial. However, it is not the only way to get to to the needed 'zone of effectiveness' . Going through the side of the hammer gets to the same zone for all three strings in one stroke. The procedure advocated as "Angel Shot Voicing" also effectively targets the same zone of effectiveness.

Side-needle and Angel Shot are two ways to make the same thing happen that are quick, easy and effective.

Additionally, there are other zones of effectiveness. Poking around in the 11:00 to 1:00 zone will not increase sustain the way it may in the 3:00 and 9:00 zones, for example.

I'm enough of an experimenter that I might get the tool to try. However, it is unfortunate that we still have procedures being sold in piano technology with the "black box" or hocus-pocus approach that doesn't really disclose the operation or compare one procedure to another. I would rather see someone telling about the tool who has experience effectively voicing pianos using a variety of techniques.






Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#2174486 - 10/30/13 06:35 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,045
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,045
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by kpembrook

I'm enough of an experimenter that I might get the tool to try. However, it is unfortunate that we still have procedures being sold in piano technology with the "black box" or hocus-pocus approach that doesn't really disclose the operation or compare one procedure to another. I would rather see someone telling about the tool who has experience effectively voicing pianos using a variety of techniques.



My sentiment exactly. This could be the greatest thing since sliced bread. There's not enough information supplied to make a responsible decision one way or the other. Some may wish to take a leap of faith and cut the check. A good demo that actually shows a tech voicing a tuned piano with the tool is what's really needed.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2174532 - 10/30/13 08:48 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
There is always the granite bridge top to consider.

Remember that one?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2174586 - 10/30/13 11:54 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 217
David, OHIO Offline
Full Member
David, OHIO  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 217
Coshocton, Ohio
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
There is always the granite bridge top to consider.

Remember that one?



Yes, Whatever happened to the granite bridge? As I recall there was some bonafide experimentation with much improved sustain, clarity, decay etc. I thought it to be a great idea but implementation would be difficult to say the least.


David Chadwick RPT
Coshocton, Ohio
1931 Mason Hamlin AA
#2174960 - 10/31/13 05:05 PM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,045
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,045
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
There is always the granite bridge top to consider.

Remember that one?


Hmmm. Don't recall that one. confused



Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2175113 - 11/01/13 01:21 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: studio43]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
Olympia, WA
Originally Posted by studio43
Ryan,

You are correct, this is a dental type tool but is a professional grade... In development I tried that cheap stuff from Harbor and it is not sharp enough or strong enough.

The Rapid Voicer is Dr. Grade, will not dull, can't be cut through with a saw type stuff. It is sharper than a needle and it is a must to do the technique.

I can bend and cut that Harbor Freight stuff in a few seconds....

Also, my mentor made some specific additions to the tool to make it work for this application and it is all explained in our web site and tutorials. Hope this helps.

http://www.pianotunertools.com




Eric,

Thank you for the response! It sounds like the tool is more substantial than it first appeared.

That being said I'm still very suspicious of any quick fixes or "magic" elixirs when it comes to voicing. However, if your clients are satisfied with the results, then you have the most important endorsement.

Last edited by rysowers; 11/01/13 01:22 AM.

Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2175116 - 11/01/13 01:39 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
Olympia, WA
From rapid voice website: "The Rapid Voicer System will revolutionize the way you approach voicing. This amazing new system makes service voicing attainable for all technicians. It is the only voicing method ever developed which contains precise and controlled elements for voicing a piano up or down quickly."

If the system is so revolutionary and amazing, why is the only testimonial on your website by someone named Harris Georgallis who doesn't even claim to be a technician.

Eric: If you want seasoned technicians to take your products seriously you need to get some endorsements from some tools to respected names in the business: someone like Don Mannino of Kawai, or Richard Davenport, or Steve Brady etc. You might even consider bringing the tools to a PTG convention.

Maybe it's the way in which the products are marketed that seemed a little "snake oil salesman" like. But I'll try to keep an open mind.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2176326 - 11/03/13 10:38 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 787
RoyP Offline
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RoyP  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 787
Cincinnati, Ohio
Ryan, I think you are spot on regarding his advertising. I looked at this thread, and noticed that Eric is in my area. I was curious, as he's someone I've never heard of. So, I went to his website. He prominently advertises that he does the tuning at Wright State University on the front page. Imagine my surprise, since I've been doing the work there for the last 5 years or so. If he is trying to build credibility with technicians, it's lost on me grin


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com
#2176802 - 11/04/13 08:14 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 12
William Steward Offline
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William Steward  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 12
Cayman Islands
It would nice to hear a comment from someone who has experience with this tool. Except for Isaac's observations, these comments mostly focus on the quality of ad and credentials which seem beside the point. As a leap of faith I bought the carbon fiber hammer from Eric and like it it a lot - based on that experience his credibility is high with me. I agree that it is a lot to spend on a tool but if it lasts a lifetime, surely worth it.


William Steward
#2176817 - 11/04/13 09:08 AM Re: Rapidvoicer.com? [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,760
UnrightTooner Offline
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UnrightTooner  Offline
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Bradford County, PA
I am trying to figure out how something that looks like a hawk's talon can be shoved 7/16 inch deep into a hammer. And if you did, how a piece of plastic tubing would prevent it from going too far.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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