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#1994593 - 12/04/12 12:03 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,135
bennevis Online content
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bennevis  Online Content
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by Ralph
This thread is going a little astray, but I can't help but to think about those great pianists that could not perform in public such as Glenn Gould and even Rachmaninov and wonder if they lacked the narcissistic qualities necessary for a concert career.


Sometimes one wonders how (and why) pianists who suffer terribly from nerves keep giving concerts, e.g. Clifford Curzon. You only have to listen to his two live recordings of the Liszt Sonata (compare them to his studio recording made at the same time) to hear what happens. But as to whether he was narcissistic or egoistic.....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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#1994599 - 12/04/12 12:30 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: wr]  
Joined: Feb 2006
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landorrano Offline
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landorrano  Offline
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France
Originally Posted by wr


In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.


That's silly. Pogorelich himself doesn't strike me as narcissistic, from what I know of him he seems like a quite nice and interesting chap.

#1994604 - 12/04/12 12:39 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: bennevis]  
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argerichfan Offline
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argerichfan  Offline
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Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted by bennevis

Sometimes one wonders how (and why) pianists who suffer terribly from nerves keep giving concerts, e.g. Clifford Curzon. You only have to listen to his two live recordings of the Liszt Sonata (compare them to his studio recording made at the same time) to hear what happens. But as to whether he was narcissistic or egoistic.....

From what I have read about Curzon, neither word would seem applicable.

Curzon evidently had problems with nerves in the studio as well. Reportedly, the opening of the 3rd movement of the Decca Brahms D minor required many, many takes before he could get it down accurately. Otherwise, the recording is something of a classic. And we certainly know what a fine chamber musician Curzon was.


Jason
#1994647 - 12/04/12 02:23 PM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]  
Joined: Nov 2010
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ando Offline
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ando  Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional


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#1995779 - 12/07/12 06:38 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Orange Soda King]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
asthecrowflies Offline
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asthecrowflies  Offline
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Posts: 122
London, Cambridge, San Francis...
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
^ ^ My all time favorite Gaspard!!


+1. The texture of his right hand playing is magical. I still prefer Martha's Scarbo though.


Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus
#1995780 - 12/07/12 06:39 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: ando]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
asthecrowflies Offline
Full Member
asthecrowflies  Offline
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Posts: 122
London, Cambridge, San Francis...
Originally Posted by ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.


Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus
#1995781 - 12/07/12 06:57 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: asthecrowflies]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,031
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,031
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by asthecrowflies
Originally Posted by ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.


Yikes, sounds like you went through some tough times!

#1995799 - 12/07/12 07:59 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: ando]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
landorrano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
France
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by asthecrowflies
Originally Posted by ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



Wait, sorry, were we discussion musicians or every one of my ex-es? I forget.




Yikes, sounds like you went through some tough times!


What would the "ex-es" say? Maybe it's they who went through some hard times!

#1995801 - 12/07/12 08:06 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: Ralph]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
landorrano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
France
As for "Gaspard dans la nuit", it must be heard live in a hall. It is physical, three-dimensional, no recording can bring this out no matter the player and I am indifferent to all that I have heard. I have been absolutely spellbound by it in concert on several occasions.

#1995830 - 12/07/12 09:12 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: landorrano]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,867
wr Offline
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wr  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,867
Originally Posted by landorrano
Originally Posted by wr


In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are NO famous pianists who are not also world-class narcissists, either overtly or covertly. It's a job requirement.


That's silly. Pogorelich himself doesn't strike me as narcissistic, from what I know of him he seems like a quite nice and interesting chap.


There's no rule that says that narcissists can't be nice, nor interesting. In fact, the best narcissists probably flatter themselves over having those very qualities.

But to qualify just a little - when I wrote that, I was thinking of performers specifically in their role as performers, rather than about their entire 24/7 persona.

#1995834 - 12/07/12 09:21 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: ando]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,867
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member
wr  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,867
Originally Posted by ando
Narcissism is not the same as having an ego. Narcissists have a pathological devotion to themselves, they lack empathy for others, they see others as tools for their own purposes. I think that's far too strong for our concert performers. I think performers usually have large egos - some very large, but I don't think they could be considered pathological.

The list of common symtoms of narcissistic personality disorder from Wiki:

-Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation
-Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals
-Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents
-Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance
-Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
-Becoming jealous easily
-Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others
-Being obsessed with oneself
-Pursuing mainly selfish goals
-Trouble keeping healthy relationships
-Becoming easily hurt and rejected
-Setting goals that are unrealistic
-Wanting "the best" of everything
-Appearing unemotional



"Narcissist" as a usage predates the invention of "narcissistic personality disorder" by quite a while, I think, and they aren't the same thing. If I think performers are, pretty much by definition, narcissists, it doesn't mean I think they all have the clinical disorder. Of course, they might have it, but that's not what I was saying.


#1995889 - 12/07/12 11:33 AM Re: Pogo in 1980 Chopin competition [Re: wr]  
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member
landorrano  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,572
France
I think the opposite as you, WR. An artist cannot be narcissistic or egoistic when he is playing, even if he is in "real life". For the time of a subject and a counter-subject he is worlds beyond that.

Originally Posted by wr
In fact, the best narcissists probably flatter themselves over having those very qualities.


You've really got it in for those poor spring flowers! smile

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