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I hope my answer won't keep other people from answering, because there could be different ways to see this. Here are a few thoughts....

BTW I'm pretty sure you mean measure 9; the counting of measures generally starts with the first complete measure.

Yes, you probably ought to change the pedal more than what you're doing -- but what makes you think you shouldn't? It sounds like you're implying that your edition shows a pedal marking through the whole measure? If it does, I think that's an editor's addition; I don't think Chopin indicated any pedal marking. But even if he had, a 'continuous' pedal marking doesn't necessarily mean you don't change the pedal in the middle of it, sometimes even more than once. It's easy to fall into unmusical traps by assuming it means you 'can't' change the pedal, and in fact for years I committed that sin in the mazurka middle section of Chopin's F# minor Polonaise. Most of the measures seem to show a continuous pedal throughout the measure, but that's AWFUL, and in fact few top pianists follow it literally. I learned the piece before I realized that the marking doesn't necessarily mean that you hold the pedal continuously, and it took years for me to rethink it.

Actually in this case, maybe it might be possible indeed to hold the pedal the whole time and maybe could be very effective if you play the left hand very softly and do some nuanced things with the dynamics of the right hand; I'm not sure that could work and I can't test it out because I'm not near a piano. Anyway, I think the main answer is, yes indeed -- change the pedal, according to what your ear tells you.

I guess you mean measure 9? Yes, the first chords in the LH will sound a bit discordant because of C and B played together, but discordance also has its meaning, like conveying angst. Or do you mean something else?

Mark C and ChopinAddict
You are both right I did mean measure 9, this is what comes of hurriedly counting in Italian before posting one's question. My question about playing this particular measure is trying to find a way of playing it so that the two lines don't sound oppossed to each other. I will try changing the pedal more often in my practice tomorrow, but I know you need the sustain pedal to keep that wondrous singing aspect to the piece. I don't know quite how to describe the sound maybe muddled is a better word, as the notes before and after this measures sound clearer.

If the sound is muddled, yes, changing the pedal more often should help. Also, try to observe the dynamics (it will sound less dull and more expressive).

OK, you're ready for the next clue!

I don't usually like getting into details like this unless they involve some major principle for piano playing in general -- and this does.

Wherever you do the extra pedal changes, play the next note softer -- softer than what preceded, and softer than what immediately follows. You don't have to do this; it's sort of "extra credit."
Feel free to leave it for much later.

While of course there are exceptions to everything, this is a good and fairly uniform 'rule' for beautiful playing of passages that have any amount of lyricism. It's a good bet that any famous pianist whose playing we find particularly beautiful tends to do this. It's usually subtle, and barely perceptible unless you're looking for it, or (I suppose) if you put an oscilloscope to it.

The reason this works is that a pedal change inherently makes the next note sound louder. So, in order to not have a "bump," we have to play it softer. Plus, it allows us to have a clearer sound with the notes that follow, because the softness of that first note will prevent it from competing too much with the new notes. This is one of the main 'tricks' for playing beautiful lines and creating great pedal effects: having a feel for which notes to 'soften,' sometimes seeming to be illogical and especially involving the first note after a pedal change.

Have a listen to this tango by Pink Martini, based on the Andante Spianato. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek, to my ears, but it works:

La Soledad

Elene

Sounds nice! I just adore the Andante- listen to it a lot.

Favorite Waltz: E minor, Op. posth.
Nocturne: 48/1, or 27/2.
Ballade: 4.
Scherzo: 3.
Etude: 25/7.
Prelude: 24.
Mazurka: Don't know them well enough.
Polonaise: Op. 53.
Impromptu: 4.
Sonata: Very close, but probably 2.
Concerto: 1.

Y'all may be interested in this book:
The Piano Master Classes of Franz Liszt

(There is a similar book about Hans von Bülow.)

This is a collection of diary notes by Liszt's student August Göllerich, describing events he witnessed at master classes. It's somewhat like the anecdotes told about Chopin's teaching in the Eigeldinger book. My teacher has it, and today while we were working on the 48/1 nocturne, we looked to see if Liszt had made any comments about that. What we found was his takedown of a student who played it in an overly emotional manner: "Do not disturb yourself so much; it is by no means so bad!"

While practicing this piece, I've thought often of one of the points that Mark brought up, that there is so much going on in the LH and one must "subdue" it and make the few RH notes sing above it all. This piece has that challenge in spades, with huge handfuls of LH chords (later in the RH as well), so many of which must be played gently and kept in balance with the melody.

Elene

Regarding the too-loud left hand (several comments up) - could this be because the bass strings are boomier on our current pianos than they were on the old Pleyels? Or whatever Chopin played (assuming French piano)

That's a good point; this is a common issue with many of Chopin's pieces, and it may well have been less of a problem on instruments of the 1830s and '40s. Also, there is more of a tonal difference between treble and bass areas of the earlier instruments; on today's pianos the registers blend together more. So melodies in the higher, more "tinkly" part of the piano may have stood out more distinctly without special efforts.

(It could be worse. My harpsichord teacher mentions that composers in different countries took into account the way their local instruments were made and what part of the range was loudest. For those of us playing the "wrong" country's type of instrument, this can be obnoxious, and there's nothing at all we can do to balance the dynamics.)

Elene

Here's my teacher's teacher, Sheila Paige, giving a clear introduction to basic pianistic movements in Taubman Approach style. I think you'll find it useful. She uses the "Black Key" etude as an example, and you can easily hear the difference between the "before" and "after."

"How Motion Affects Sound"

Elene

Want to save a podcast?

I've enjoyed listening to the "Play it again, Swig" podcast for about the past year. The pianist's goal is to learn all of the Chopin Etudes. The podcast comes from Jocelyn Swiggert, a pianist and professor of music.

Play it again, Swig

I've found it very interesting to listen to over the past year or so. It's worth taking a look at, but she's at her penultimate podcast! If she doesn't get 100 reviews on iTunes by December 20 or she's going to retire the podcast. She has about 18 so far, so I figure there must be 82 Chopin fans around here who are also piano learners and would like to keep a resource like this going!

Go here to find the podcast on iTunes: Play it again, Swig (subscribe and write a review on iTunes)

(apparently it's Swigger -- no T)

Thanks for catching my typo, actually a mishearing from the podcast!

Jocelyn Swigger

I see she has 20 ratings, but only 13 reviews. It was 100 reviews that was the goal. Doesn't look like this one's going to make it to another season, so to speak! But two more days to go for all you would-be Chopin Etudes podcast lovers out there.

Keeping up the Swig theme...

She posted a cool medley of Christmas Carols and Chopin Etudes. You can find the audio at the link as well as a video and on YouTube here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghEZ00LjAfs

Scarily well done! Thanks for posting!

I wonder if Our Friend knew any of these tunes? I'm not sure when they were composed, or whether any were played in his part of the world. (Not taking time to look them up just now.)

Elene

I posted about this on Pianist Corner but figured it might be of interest here too.

After years of hearing Horowitz's recordings of the A-flat Polonaise, I just noticed a "cheat" that he does on the scale runs.

Check this out:



The runs are at 1:10, 1:48, 3:07, and 6:31. What he does is, he interrupts the left hand a few notes before the top and jumps it directly to the top note.

Why? A couple of things, I think. It enables the left hand to play the top note more brilliantly; plus, by causing a sudden drawn-down of the volume when he stops the left hand, it enables a more dramatic overall crescendo to the top.

Many would frown on it. I think it's great. Of course we have to be careful about monkeying with what the composer wrote, but.....it all depends, doesn't it?

It's fascinating to be able to watch Horowitz so close up.

I wouldn't be able to pick up on any "cheating" in the scale passages, though I do hear wrong notes at some other times. Whenever I've heard recordings of Horowitz playing this piece there have been obvious mistakes (Rubinstein too). It's refreshing to know they're human.

Elene