Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
95 registered members (AprilE, ando, anais77, AZNpiano, BachToTheFuture, Almaviva, 23 invisible), 1,977 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#1991884 - 11/28/12 10:53 AM Hand soreness  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
As a 2-month newbie aspiring non-classical pianist, I'm looking for some wisdom-

I'm advised to practice 30 minutes every day. By 20 minutes or so, I begin to feel a slight soreness in my left wrist. I'm confident that I am using good hand posture and attribute the soreness to lack of conditioning in the wrist muscles, joints, etc.

What should my strategy be for this- stop playing when this happens? Make the practices shorter? Do multiple short sessions? Just keep going? The soreness is very mild but I have read horror stories of serious and permanent injury.

I don't want to let my enthusiasm do me in!


Last edited by 88slowpoke; 11/28/12 10:56 AM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1991895 - 11/28/12 11:36 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,210
dmd Offline
3000 Post Club Member
dmd  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,210
Pennsylvania
You are doing the right thing by paying attention to discomfort.

Multiple short sessions is probably the best option.

Certainly, not the KEEP GOING option !!

It would not hurt to take a day or two off just to give your wrist a chance to recover.

I once let my enthusiasm override my common sense and I ended up not touching the piano for about 4 months.







Last edited by dmd; 11/28/12 11:38 AM.

Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#1991907 - 11/28/12 12:17 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
It is difficult to determine whether the soreness is being caused by the muscles, as they learn a new skill and build the strength to perform it. I will not rule out the possibility. However, more often than not it is a sign of tension, and any tension maintained for a long enough period of time will cause injury to such a small mechanism as the hands/fingers.

Any chance you can post a video of you playing and also practicing something? Might be revealing.. smile


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1991914 - 11/28/12 12:39 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,496
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Andy Platt  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,496
Virginia, USA
I'm going to second the call on this being tension even if you are confident about hand position. It's taken me two years plus to (mostly) get rid of mine under the watchful eye of a teacher. And my left hand (I'm right handed) is worse for that than my right.



  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

Kawai K3
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1991960 - 11/28/12 02:36 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Thanks all for the responses, all good points and well taken. Unfortunately, I am not able to make a video as suggested by Derulux. I will proceed cautiously as advised and expect in a month or so to begin lessons (For the second time- just dropped out of lessons that were designed to sell me an electric piano); we have recently acquired a vintage Mason B to replace an old and untunable family instrument.

#1991966 - 11/28/12 02:56 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 918
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member
BeccaBb  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 918
Fort Frances, On Canada
Slowpoke: another suggestion is to break up your practice into two 15 minute sessions so you can take a break in between. Resting for a few minutes will probably help with the pain/tension issue.

I break up an hour practice into 4 15 minute sessions, everyday. I take 5 or ten minutes in between just to relax (like right now! LOL) and then go back and refocus. I find it really helps me keep relaxed and has reduced many issues I had with my back and wrist pain from tension.



Becca
Began: 01-12-11
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Roland RD300NX
1947 Gulbranson spinet piano
#1992003 - 11/28/12 04:16 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 53
StefaanBelgium Offline
Full Member
StefaanBelgium  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 53
Belgium
Definately watch out not to overdo things, especially if you're already a bit *ahum* older . Since I passed the 35 year mark, I have to watch out for what I do. If I sport too fanatically, my body will pay for it ! I've learnt to listen to my body the hard way ...


Kawai CA65
#1992037 - 11/28/12 05:45 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,034
spanishbuddha Offline
3000 Post Club Member
spanishbuddha  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,034
UK
I wonder how heavy or stiff the key action is on a vintage Mason B? Sometimes a lighter action, even if it is obtained via a digital, can be a stepping stone towards longer practice for those who have hand problems.

#1992043 - 11/28/12 05:57 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: spanishbuddha]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,610
jdw Offline
1000 Post Club Member
jdw  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,610
Philadelphia, PA
I think that with proper technique, heaviness or lightness of the action shouldn't be an issue. It's even possible for lighter actions (as on a computer keyboard) to lead to more hand problems, as people may be encouraged to use more isolated finger motions instead of hand and arm together.


1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Haydn, Sonata Hob. XVI: 19
Chopin, Waltz in E minor (op. posth.)
Schubert, Op. 90 no. 2
#1992068 - 11/28/12 06:36 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: BeccaBb]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Originally Posted by BeccaBb
Slowpoke: another suggestion is to break up your practice into two 15 minute sessions so you can take a break in between. Resting for a few minutes will probably help with the pain/tension issue.

I break up an hour practice into 4 15 minute sessions, everyday. I take 5 or ten minutes in between just to relax (like right now! LOL) and then go back and refocus. I find it really helps me keep relaxed and has reduced many issues I had with my back and wrist pain from tension.



Thank you- this is the approach I have started as of today.

#1992069 - 11/28/12 06:37 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 918
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member
BeccaBb  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 918
Fort Frances, On Canada
Your welcome! smile

Let us know if it's working for you!


Becca
Began: 01-12-11
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Roland RD300NX
1947 Gulbranson spinet piano
#1992072 - 11/28/12 06:39 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: StefaanBelgium]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Originally Posted by StefaanBelgium
Definately watch out not to overdo things, especially if you're already a bit *ahum* older . Since I passed the 35 year mark, I have to watch out for what I do. If I sport too fanatically, my body will pay for it ! I've learnt to listen to my body the hard way ...


Well, Stefaan... I passed the 35 year mark also... 30 years ago! But, I'm fit, active, and as a result of a career spent in the construction trades, I still have (most) of my "oomph".

#1992074 - 11/28/12 06:40 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: spanishbuddha]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
I wonder how heavy or stiff the key action is on a vintage Mason B? Sometimes a lighter action, even if it is obtained via a digital, can be a stepping stone towards longer practice for those who have hand problems.


Actually, I've been practicing on the old piano, which has a feather-light action. The Mason will arrive in a few days.

#1992076 - 11/28/12 06:43 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: BeccaBb]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Originally Posted by BeccaBb
Your welcome! smile

Let us know if it's working for you!


Will do. It's nice to get some feedback from others to my little corner of the world, and I'll keep everyone posted.

#1992165 - 11/28/12 10:39 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by 88slowpoke
Thanks all for the responses, all good points and well taken. Unfortunately, I am not able to make a video as suggested by Derulux. I will proceed cautiously as advised and expect in a month or so to begin lessons (For the second time- just dropped out of lessons that were designed to sell me an electric piano); we have recently acquired a vintage Mason B to replace an old and untunable family instrument.

No problem. In that case, keep in mind a few things:

1. Do not "press down" the key after you have played it. Use just enough weight to keep it down, without forcing.

2. Do not "stretch" your fingers out. (Press your fingers together so they are all touching. Then, spread them out as wide as you can so none of them touch. This spread out form is "stretching" and can cause tension.)

3. Do not "lock" your fingers, hands, wrists, or arms in any one position. Each must move throughout the playing, whether it's a simple trill or a complex passage. If they're "locked", it's tension.


These are probably the top three easiest "tension checkers," though I'm sure others may have more ideas for you. I hope it helps. smile


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1992187 - 11/28/12 11:41 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 366
stumbler Offline
Full Member
stumbler  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 366
Toronto
As a secondary comment, you might also consider some stretching before you practice. I am not a health professional, but some gentle stretching before your practice may also help if you have some muscle tightness.

One site I found is

http://www.musicianshealth.com/stretches.htm



Roland RD-700NX

[Linked Image]
#1992298 - 11/29/12 08:57 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,252
malkin Offline
4000 Post Club Member
malkin  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,252
*sigh* Salt Lake City
Stay mindful of Hands Separate practice and be sure to alternate hands. Working on pieces, my right hand gets tired quite often, so I give it a little rest while the left works on something, which is not the same piece.


Having power is not nearly as important as what you choose to do with it.
– Roald Dahl

#1992322 - 11/29/12 10:04 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,874
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,874
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by 88slowpoke
As a 2-month newbie aspiring non-classical pianist, I'm looking for some wisdom-

I'm advised to practice 30 minutes every day. By 20 minutes or so, I begin to feel a slight soreness in my left wrist. I'm confident that I am using good hand posture and attribute the soreness to lack of conditioning in the wrist muscles, joints, etc.

What should my strategy be for this- stop playing when this happens? Make the practices shorter? Do multiple short sessions? Just keep going? The soreness is very mild but I have read horror stories of serious and permanent injury.

I don't want to let my enthusiasm do me in!



Are you studying with a teacher? Be sure to mention this to them so they can study how you're playing. Soreness usually is the result of 1) Overuse 2) Abuse (poor technique) or 3) Both.

In order to help troubleshoot the issue, stop playing immediately when you first experience signs of fatigue. The fatigue happens before the soreness, so it's important that you catch this early. That may mean after 10 minutes. Keep in mind that two 10-minute sessions is the same as one 20-minute session, so don't feel lik you will be practicing less. Be sure you give yourself enough time to rest in between sessions.

If, however in your second session you feel the fatigue or soreness coming on, then stop. This may indicate that the issue is not a matter of "strength" but a matter of technical issues that need to be addressed by someone who knows how to spot these things and deal with them. If your teacher is unable to help you, perhaps they can recommend someone you can consult with for a little while to resolve it.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#1992453 - 11/29/12 04:00 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions. Although I do not currently have a teacher, I am looking for one and practicing on my own in the meantime. I get the idea that it is common to have these symptoms when starting out and that I should not ignore them. I will be mindful of any pain or stiffness until I get some professional instruction.

#1992485 - 11/29/12 05:10 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Where do you live? There may be members in here who can help you find a good teacher. I may be able to help. And there is the teacher's sub-forum you can post in.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1992500 - 11/29/12 05:55 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Michael_99  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
Generally, if you are involved in intense activity of wrist or fingers, you can have some soreness. It is very, very important to be very relaxed when typing or being a cashier or
playing the piano. An acoustic piano requires quite a bit of strength. I would suggest that you be very gentle of your wrists such as carrying heavy bags of groceries, etc. I have typed since I was 13 and I am now in my 60s. I have time to time have had wrist discomport. It is usually under stress of the fingers and wrist that pain or discomfort develops. I play an acoustic piano by I only play it softly as a beginner. I suspect if I play the piano forte all the time I might have wrists pain. I suspect you will be just fine if you just be gentle for a while and hopefully the discomfort will diminish and you can slowly and cautiously return to your regular piano playing.

#1992623 - 11/29/12 11:58 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
MaryAnn Offline
Full Member
MaryAnn  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
Japan
Originally Posted by Derulux

No problem. In that case, keep in mind a few things:

1. Do not "press down" the key after you have played it. Use just enough weight to keep it down, without forcing.

2. Do not "stretch" your fingers out. (Press your fingers together so they are all touching. Then, spread them out as wide as you can so none of them touch. This spread out form is "stretching" and can cause tension.)

3. Do not "lock" your fingers, hands, wrists, or arms in any one position. Each must move throughout the playing, whether it's a simple trill or a complex passage. If they're "locked", it's tension.


These are probably the top three easiest "tension checkers," though I'm sure others may have more ideas for you. I hope it helps. smile
I'm having left wrist issues, and I think I'm guilty of all three of those. I really want to work on correcting this with my teacher, but my wrist just isn't recovering :-(

#1992635 - 11/30/12 12:57 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: MaryAnn]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by MaryAnn
Originally Posted by Derulux

No problem. In that case, keep in mind a few things:

1. Do not "press down" the key after you have played it. Use just enough weight to keep it down, without forcing.

2. Do not "stretch" your fingers out. (Press your fingers together so they are all touching. Then, spread them out as wide as you can so none of them touch. This spread out form is "stretching" and can cause tension.)

3. Do not "lock" your fingers, hands, wrists, or arms in any one position. Each must move throughout the playing, whether it's a simple trill or a complex passage. If they're "locked", it's tension.


These are probably the top three easiest "tension checkers," though I'm sure others may have more ideas for you. I hope it helps. smile
I'm having left wrist issues, and I think I'm guilty of all three of those. I really want to work on correcting this with my teacher, but my wrist just isn't recovering :-(

If it's bad enough to cause significant aching/pain, you may need to take some time off.

Also, keep in mind that other uses of the hand away from playing may exacerbate the issue. If you hold a phone in your hand all day, if you type incorrectly on a keyboard (usually with wrists resting on a surface, whether gel or not), if you finger rapidly through pages of copy, etc. Any of these can causes repeated stress-related injuries. There are hundreds of examples, but the most important thing to keep in mind is this: inflammation builds over time. You won't necessarily feel it while performing the specific task. You may only feel it hours later, and often immediately before going to sleep.

If you want to take a look at/tackle any specific problems, I'd be happy to try and help, whether within or outside the realm of the piano. smile


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1992736 - 11/30/12 09:40 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
Originally Posted by Derulux
Where do you live? There may be members in here who can help you find a good teacher. I may be able to help. And there is the teacher's sub-forum you can post in.


Thanks for the offer. I have some local leads to follow in the coming days. If they don't pan out, I'll then look for some additional input. BTW, I live in southwestern RI (aka God's country, except for our politicians).

#1992774 - 11/30/12 11:54 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Southwestern RI? I'm very familiar. Used to have a house in Westerly, about 2 blocks off the beach. But I haven't been up there in a few years now.

The closest I can get is the Boston suburbs.. which is likely too far for you to travel for lessons. I'll ask around up there and see if anyone I know might know someone in RI for you. I'll PM you if I get a hit.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1992869 - 11/30/12 03:47 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,773
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Jeff Clef  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,773
San Jose, CA
Dear 88slow,

"...we have recently acquired a vintage Mason B to replace an old and untunable family instrument."

I like the advice you have received here--- and I can see how such an instrument would be both a motivator and a temptation which any pianist would find hard to resist. Still, you are wise to stop trouble before it gets started, because it can turn out to be a big and difficult problem if it's not turned aside.

In the circumstances, you might as well make it a point to ask candidate teachers if they are knowledgeable and experienced in helping students to avoid physical problems that can come from playing. This will not be the case with all of them, even in your area, though if you threw a dart at a map of metro Boston it would probably lodge in the roof of a conservatory or university music school (or at least a concert hall). It is possible that calling such a school could yield teacher recommendations.

Meanwhile, even if a vid of your playing is not possible, how about a still photo? A thousand words, you know. One bad mistake in seat height or seated posture, or of the alignment of hand/wrist/arm with the keys, is all it takes. I'll give you one example: some people sit way too low, so that instead of pushing the keys down with a fairly straight wrist, they instead pull the keys down with their wrists bent almost at 90°. It is a disaster in the making; the tendons resent this badly.

I can't say what is the story with your wrist discomfort from what we know, and what to do depends on what is wrong. One would doubt that you have had time to develop an overuse disorder (rest, ice/NSAIDS, correct technique); it could be as simple as a little touch of arthritis (and in that case, movement IS the treatment). Not that I'm a doctor--- merely a student who has been through some of this trouble myself.

I'll wish you the best of luck with it, and I hope you'll write back and let us know how it goes.


Clef

#1992998 - 11/30/12 10:12 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
MaryAnn Offline
Full Member
MaryAnn  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
Japan
Originally Posted by Derulux
If it's bad enough to cause significant aching/pain, you may need to take some time off.

Also, keep in mind that other uses of the hand away from playing may exacerbate the issue. If you hold a phone in your hand all day, if you type incorrectly on a keyboard (usually with wrists resting on a surface, whether gel or not), if you finger rapidly through pages of copy, etc. Any of these can causes repeated stress-related injuries. There are hundreds of examples, but the most important thing to keep in mind is this: inflammation builds over time. You won't necessarily feel it while performing the specific task. You may only feel it hours later, and often immediately before going to sleep.

If you want to take a look at/tackle any specific problems, I'd be happy to try and help, whether within or outside the realm of the piano. smile
I haven't played the piano with my left hand for quite a few months now. I have continued my lessons, but we are doing right hand only practice.

I'm curious about your typing comments. I just bought a rest to put in front of my keyboard at work, and a "mouse bean" for my mouse hand, even though my right hand is fine. It feels like they are keeping my hands in a better position than when I don't use them. If I read your post correctly, you are saying these things are bad?

I've been typing for about 35 years, and it's never caused me problems, btw. When I started having wrist problems (about 8 months after starting piano), everything seems to aggravate it at least sometimes.

#1993117 - 12/01/12 09:25 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
It seems I have opened quite a hot topic with this thread. It would be interesting to hear additional accounts of personal experiences with soreness and/or stiffness issues. For the moment, I am paying attention to any symptoms that arise and curtailing my practicing as necessary. At this point, my symptoms are minor, but I don't want them to escalate.

I'm hoping that with some conditioning of the piano-playing muscles, these issues will diminish.

#1993386 - 12/01/12 09:22 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 152
DinaP Offline
Full Member
DinaP  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 152
As a 67 year old with FMS I have many physical issues.

Some things that are helping me to help myself and my teacher to help me are:

Thomas Mark’s book What Every Pianist Needs to Know about the Body – after going through the book I also acquired the DVD, but have not checked it out yet

Barbara Lister-Sink’s DVD Freeing the Caged Bird

Finding a really good Neuro-Muscular Massage Therapist who is interested enough to have reviewed Sink’s DVD and Mark’s book

Having a really good teacher who watches me like a hawk and picks up on tension and bad form

I just started the first book of exercises in Piano Games by Terrence Rust – these are uncovering all sorts of tension and weakness issues

I have learned from my teacher to have patience, to work exercises and scales slowly while paying close attention to hand position and tension – and to expect that progress will be made – but it will take some time – each little step mastered has become a really big thing for me – and I’ve learned to feel really good about mastering something that many would take for granted

I wish you the best – just be very patient with yourself – I think it’s great that you picked up on the problem and realize the importance of dealing with it early


#1993389 - 12/01/12 09:25 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 91
Bane Offline
Full Member
Bane  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 91
USA
Quote
As a 2-month newbie aspiring non-classical pianist, I'm looking for some wisdom-

I'm advised to practice 30 minutes every day. By 20 minutes or so, I begin to feel a slight soreness in my left wrist. I'm confident that I am using good hand posture and attribute the soreness to lack of conditioning in the wrist muscles, joints, etc.

What should my strategy be for this- stop playing when this happens? Make the practices shorter? Do multiple short sessions? Just keep going? The soreness is very mild but I have read horror stories of serious and permanent injury.

I don't want to let my enthusiasm do me in!



LOL! Now you sound like a guitar player!

+1 to shorter sessions.

Last edited by Bane; 12/01/12 09:39 PM.

www.soundcloud.com/btrailblazer

Cable-Nelson upright piano, Casio WK-200, Mackie MR5MK2 monitors, Cubase Artist 7, Steinberg's The Grand 3, Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 interface, Asus R500a-RS52 Windows 8, i5-3230M 2.6 gHz, 6GB RAM, 750GB HD (5400RPM)
#1993423 - 12/01/12 11:29 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: DinaP]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,816
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rocket88  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,816
Originally Posted by DinaP
As a 67 year old with FMS I have many physical issues.


What is FMS?


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#1993443 - 12/02/12 12:50 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: rocket88]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 152
DinaP Offline
Full Member
DinaP  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 152
rocket88 -- FMS is Fibromyalgia Syndrome -- the aspects that affect piano playing are chronic overall pain and sore, weak muscles.

#1993446 - 12/02/12 01:01 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,816
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rocket88  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,816
Thanks, DinaP.


Piano teacher and Blues and Boogie-Woogie pianist.
#1993870 - 12/02/12 10:05 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
An update- I have been using shorter but more frequent practice sessions and watching my hand posture carefully. These efforts seem to have all but eliminated the difficulties. Of course, while I am watching my posture, I manage to hit more ♪ ♫ wrong notes! They never said it would be easy...

#1993883 - 12/02/12 10:40 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Pierre-Luc Offline
Full Member
Pierre-Luc  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Montreal
I have also been having hand soreness lately.. It actually does not hurt during practice but I can feel some pain in my fingers and wrists especially when my hands are cold - thanks to cold season.

My piano learning journey began something like four (4) months ago now and I might have been a little over enthusiastic in regards to practice hours.

I have read that many hours of practice a day should not cause hand soreness on it's own. The soreness is most likely caused by bad posture, tension when playing and unnatural and/or bad finger technique.

For my part, the main issue I can see is the tension when I'm practicing mainly when sight reading. I can feel the tension in my neck so I guess this can be related in some degree to the hand soreness I have been experiencing. I now try to relax the best I can when practicing.. My teacher also suggested me to keep my wrists a little higher when practicing but overall it was not too bad.

As I don't want this problem to deteriorate any further, I googled this subject quite a bit and have read some very good comments on the book "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body" by Thomas Mark. DinaP also mentioned it in this thread. It wants to make you understand the body mechanisms a little better so you are more aware of what can hurt your body when practicing (or even at the computer keyboard, etc.).

I have not received the book from Amazon yet but I'll certainly provide some feedback here once I complete reading it.


Yamaha YDP-181
Alfred's All-in-One Level 2
#1994071 - 12/03/12 11:53 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 918
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member
BeccaBb  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 918
Fort Frances, On Canada
Slowpoke that is great news! I'm so glad it's helping. I also find I hit more wrong notes when I'm watching my hand positions. wink


Becca
Began: 01-12-11
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Roland RD300NX
1947 Gulbranson spinet piano
#1994116 - 12/03/12 01:15 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: MaryAnn]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by MaryAnn
Originally Posted by Derulux
If it's bad enough to cause significant aching/pain, you may need to take some time off.

Also, keep in mind that other uses of the hand away from playing may exacerbate the issue. If you hold a phone in your hand all day, if you type incorrectly on a keyboard (usually with wrists resting on a surface, whether gel or not), if you finger rapidly through pages of copy, etc. Any of these can causes repeated stress-related injuries. There are hundreds of examples, but the most important thing to keep in mind is this: inflammation builds over time. You won't necessarily feel it while performing the specific task. You may only feel it hours later, and often immediately before going to sleep.

If you want to take a look at/tackle any specific problems, I'd be happy to try and help, whether within or outside the realm of the piano. smile
I haven't played the piano with my left hand for quite a few months now. I have continued my lessons, but we are doing right hand only practice.

I'm curious about your typing comments. I just bought a rest to put in front of my keyboard at work, and a "mouse bean" for my mouse hand, even though my right hand is fine. It feels like they are keeping my hands in a better position than when I don't use them. If I read your post correctly, you are saying these things are bad?

I've been typing for about 35 years, and it's never caused me problems, btw. When I started having wrist problems (about 8 months after starting piano), everything seems to aggravate it at least sometimes.

Hello there! smile

Let me try to address your response in 'groups', so I can make sure to touch upon each one of your points. The order in which I do so is not necessarily indicative of importance.. I'll go through your post chronologically to try and keep some order to my thoughts.

You first mentioned the keyboard/mouse pads. I don't want you to think I'm against them, per se. What I mean to say is this: the pads help reduce stress injury by absorbing some shock. However, if one typed with "correct technique", the pads would be useless because your wrists would never touch them. Just like you need to keep your wrists up (to keep them from 'breaking') while playing the piano, you should also do the same at the keyboard. With a mouse, only your fingertips should touch it. This will reduce and in some cases, eliminate stress injuries while typing/mousing.

To your second point, this is actually a far more interesting discussion--and one I really didn't know much about until I was twenty years into playing the piano. The wrist is built to handle quite a bit of use. However, it is also very sensitive. Stress injuries and inflammation caused by environmental factors (tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc) tend to happen over long periods of time. In many cases, years of misuse. Sometimes, the misuse is so minor (typing on a keyboard) that you don't even notice it. But then you add another stressor (playing the piano), and it exacerbates the injury to the point that you do notice--usually accompanied by significant discomfort and/or pain.

I found out about these compound stressors in my very first job out of college. I was a sales rep, and spent at least five hours a day on the phone. I always held the phone in my left hand. After the first three years, I could barely play with my left hand--but my right hand was fine. I learned about compound stress issues, and tried an experiment. I stopped playing the piano for three months, and switched answering the phone to my right hand. Then, I went back to playing. This time, my left hand was much better, but after about a year-and-a-half, my right hand started to hurt. So, I bought a headset. My right hand healed, but my left hand never completely healed. I still have the issue to this day, though the symptoms are far less cumbersome than they were. If I took six months to a year off, it might heal completely, but while I can stop playing the piano, I use the computer for business.

So, for your case, you may have only had a very minor and manageable stress issue when typing, but once you added piano to the list, your body was no longer able to heal as quickly or completely between uses, and it caused a more recognizable stress issue. I wouldn't say injury, but certainly if you continued that might be the case.

There are ways to combat it, but it is difficult and typically requires a complete retraining on how to type on a keyboard. Fortunately, since you have piano experience, I can describe the basics quickly and easily using piano terms. Keep the wrists up (don't break them by resting them on the desk or a pad). Don't reach with your fingers for a letter. Move your hands/arms just like you would at the piano. It feels weird at first, because now your entire hand and arm is moving (including your elbows), but it is much much better for your hands. Don't grip the keyboard. Press the key you need and move on. Don't "twist" to hit keys out of alignment with your hands (parenthesis, dashes, backspace, shift, tab, etc). This will help, and I sincerely hope that it does. smile


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1994451 - 12/04/12 04:41 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
MaryAnn Offline
Full Member
MaryAnn  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
Japan
Thanks Derulux. And sorry for hijacking your thread, 88slowpoke. I'm glad your wrist is feeling better.

#1998569 - 12/12/12 09:24 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Pierre-Luc Offline
Full Member
Pierre-Luc  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Montreal
I recently took a break of piano for one week and started to play again just to find myself waking up the next morning with the same pain I had before the break.

I have read many articles on the web and have applied most precautions explained in "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body" by Thomas Mark...

As a complete beginner, my technique is far from perfect and I was wondering any of you guys know a teacher knowledgeable in piano related injuries in Montreal, Canada? I know something is wrong with my technique but I am just not able to pin-point it.

Just so you know, I already have a piano teacher but he thinks my technique is just fine. He is a very fine teacher but I think he does not know much about injuries as his own technique is quite at the opposite of some of the best practices I have recently read about.

Thanks so much.


Yamaha YDP-181
Alfred's All-in-One Level 2
#1998672 - 12/13/12 12:43 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Pierre-Luc]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by Pierre-Luc
I recently took a break of piano for one week and started to play again just to find myself waking up the next morning with the same pain I had before the break.

I have read many articles on the web and have applied most precautions explained in "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body" by Thomas Mark...

As a complete beginner, my technique is far from perfect and I was wondering any of you guys know a teacher knowledgeable in piano related injuries in Montreal, Canada? I know something is wrong with my technique but I am just not able to pin-point it.

Just so you know, I already have a piano teacher but he thinks my technique is just fine. He is a very fine teacher but I think he does not know much about injuries as his own technique is quite at the opposite of some of the best practices I have recently read about.

Thanks so much.

Can you post a high-res video of you playing something technically challenging? If not, Bluoh is offering skype lessons.. might be able to help you out.

If those options don't work, I also PM'd you.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1998684 - 12/13/12 01:02 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Pierre-Luc Offline
Full Member
Pierre-Luc  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Montreal
Thanks a lot for your PM, this will help a lot.

Here is a video of myself playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuaPhqvCujU

The view is not so great as it was filmed with my iPhone sitting at the same level as the keys but I have no support that could make it possible to record from above.

Even I can see that my hand twisting on the video so I could start working on that when I decide to start practicing again (when the pain wears off a little). Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


Yamaha YDP-181
Alfred's All-in-One Level 2
#1998843 - 12/13/12 11:04 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Pierre-Luc]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by Pierre-Luc
Thanks a lot for your PM, this will help a lot.

Here is a video of myself playing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuaPhqvCujU

The view is not so great as it was filmed with my iPhone sitting at the same level as the keys but I have no support that could make it possible to record from above.

Even I can see that my hand twisting on the video so I could start working on that when I decide to start practicing again (when the pain wears off a little). Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

No problem, happy to help. smile

From the video, I don't see much twisting, but if the angle of your elbow is "real" and not an "optical illusion", then yes, there could be some twisting involved.

What I do see are wrist height, stretching, and isolation issues. It's clear from the video that there is a lot of tension in your playing. I'm not going to be the guy to say playing is 100% of your problem, though.. what's your day job? You would be surprised how often inflammation is attributed solely to whatever you happen to be doing (or were just recently doing) at the moment you feel the pain, when it could have been caused (or exacerbated) hours before by something completely different.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1998856 - 12/13/12 11:29 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Pierre-Luc Offline
Full Member
Pierre-Luc  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Montreal
Originally Posted by Derulux
what's your day job? You would be surprised how often inflammation is attributed solely to whatever you happen to be doing (or were just recently doing) at the moment you feel the pain, when it could have been caused (or exacerbated) hours before by something completely different.


I work as a computer engineer :-\ My workstation is ergonomic but finger/hands overuse might not help me at all..

I just took a two week vacation from work and did not touch a computer for more than 30 minutes a day. I was playing piano for 4 hours+ though and I was feeling much pain in my hands and arms at the end of my vacation so I tend to think that the main problem is more of a piano technique problem than a computer keyboard typing technique problem.

I also never had any hand soreness before I started to play the piano.

My best bet right now would be to take some private lessons with a teacher who can teach me proper piano technique and also have someone knowledgeable who can verify my computer setup at work.

For now, I do the stretching exercises recommended on the following website a few times a day: http://www.will-harris.com/yoga/rsi.html

Thanks again for your help!


Yamaha YDP-181
Alfred's All-in-One Level 2
#1998963 - 12/13/12 02:25 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Computer engineer is a tough one. I spend a lot of time at the computer myself, and it is not an easy balance. I'd like you to keep your mind open to one critical idea that will help as you work on this overall issue: what you're doing at the keyboard is at least as big a contributor as what you are doing at the piano.

Ergonomic is great, but if you rest your wrists on a gel pad, it's almost as bad as resting them on the ground. When you do this, you isolate the fingers, which is very similar to isolation at the piano. The reason you feel it sooner/faster at the piano is because you push a heavier key down farther, and sometimes hold it much longer than on a typing keyboard. But make no mistake, the computer can cause inflammation just the same. It usually is not as severe, and the symptoms may go completely unnoticed for years (until you add another activity like playing the piano).

If my PM works out, try to apply the principles both to the piano and to the keyboard. Also, keep in mind that these kinds of injuries don't go away overnight. In some cases, they can take 6-12 months to heal, if they ever do heal. That's not to discourage you, just to give you an idea of what you'll be working with.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1999017 - 12/13/12 04:32 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
Finland
Originally Posted by Derulux
Computer engineer is a tough one. I spend a lot of time at the computer myself, and it is not an easy balance. I'd like you to keep your mind open to one critical idea that will help as you work on this overall issue: what you're doing at the keyboard is at least as big a contributor as what you are doing at the piano.

Ergonomic is great, but if you rest your wrists on a gel pad, it's almost as bad as resting them on the ground. When you do this, you isolate the fingers, which is very similar to isolation at the piano. The reason you feel it sooner/faster at the piano is because you push a heavier key down farther, and sometimes hold it much longer than on a typing keyboard. But make no mistake, the computer can cause inflammation just the same. It usually is not as severe, and the symptoms may go completely unnoticed for years (until you add another activity like playing the piano).


I agree with everything you write because of my own experience. I never had any problems with my hands or wrists before I started playing the piano. I have a teacher who is teaching me proper technique but I have been through a lot of physical problems. I used to (and sometimes still do) work with a computer for 10-12 hours a day. The way I always do it is with very low wrists resting on the table. Felt very comfortable. But then I started piano and after struggling with many things realized that my arm muscles were completely cramped and getting them back to shape has taken over a year and I am still not there completely. I have other issues also that I now realize are results of computer use and no exercise, but they never bothered me until I started playing.

#1999053 - 12/13/12 05:46 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member
floydthebarber71  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
South Africa
Hello. I don't really want to hijack threads, but I don't see the point of starting a new one. I have no idea about posture etc (will do more reading up) but how are you supposed to tackle lateral strain of the wrists? When I am playing my left hand on the higher keys, I am sitting dead centre of the piano but my left arm is across my body and the wrist has to turn laterally so that the fingers are in the right positions. Do you know what I mean?

I've tried moving my body closer to the right side of the piano when playing these sections of songs to try get rid of the angle of my left arm across the body, but I can't see this being correct (jumping around all over the stool). I don't know if I just have to get my wrists used to these positions with some training.

Regards


Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36
#1999065 - 12/13/12 06:03 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: floydthebarber71]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by floydthebarber71
Hello. I don't really want to hijack threads, but I don't see the point of starting a new one. I have no idea about posture etc (will do more reading up) but how are you supposed to tackle lateral strain of the wrists? When I am playing my left hand on the higher keys, I am sitting dead centre of the piano but my left arm is across my body and the wrist has to turn laterally so that the fingers are in the right positions. Do you know what I mean?

I've tried moving my body closer to the right side of the piano when playing these sections of songs to try get rid of the angle of my left arm across the body, but I can't see this being correct (jumping around all over the stool). I don't know if I just have to get my wrists used to these positions with some training.

Regards

You actually do have to lean, and quite a bit. The exact amount is different for each person, but you can't sit rigidly and play. It's uncomfortable at first, but you get used to it.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1999089 - 12/13/12 06:53 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member
floydthebarber71  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
South Africa
Aha, thanks. This will take some practice. Like everything else. I was just sitting in one position to give my hands a point of reference.


Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36
#1999145 - 12/13/12 09:51 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: outo]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Pierre-Luc Offline
Full Member
Pierre-Luc  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 33
Montreal
Originally Posted by outo
I agree with everything you write because of my own experience. I never had any problems with my hands or wrists before I started playing the piano. I have a teacher who is teaching me proper technique but I have been through a lot of physical problems. I used to (and sometimes still do) work with a computer for 10-12 hours a day. The way I always do it is with very low wrists resting on the table. Felt very comfortable. But then I started piano and after struggling with many things realized that my arm muscles were completely cramped and getting them back to shape has taken over a year and I am still not there completely. I have other issues also that I now realize are results of computer use and no exercise, but they never bothered me until I started playing.


As depressing as it is, I'm still happy to see that I am not alone on that one... I have been so focused on fixing my piano technique that I might have overlooked what I have been doing wrong when I'm at the computer.

I might have developed some very bad habits because low wrists on the table also feels very comfortable to me.


Yamaha YDP-181
Alfred's All-in-One Level 2
#1999179 - 12/13/12 11:25 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
floyd- A very common mistake (and one I used to have myself). It will be awkward at first, but eventually your hands will develop their own reference at the keys. Think about walking.. you don't keep your body in one place so your feet can find the ground. They learn where the ground is. wink

Pierre/outo- I discovered this one the hard way myself, several years ago. For me, it was a telephone, but all stresses add up. So, believe me, you're not even close to alone. I would guess that the vast majority of people type incorrectly at a keyboard. wink


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#1999389 - 12/14/12 01:02 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member
floydthebarber71  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 178
South Africa
Well, after the wrist concerns, I end up hurting my elbow frown My own fault, I tried playing some things which I learned back when I had obviously developed some finger strength (I haven't played for some years). Tried playing the same things now with no strength and ended tensing my right arm I guess. Will have to give it a couple days rest (sob) and then tackle my posture and alignment slowly.

Last edited by floydthebarber71; 12/14/12 01:03 PM.

Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36
#1999454 - 12/14/12 03:58 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 11
Barmybird Offline
Junior Member
Barmybird  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 11
UK
Hola, I had this recently when working on my first 4 page piece, turns out after alot of teacher questioning, my blasted stool was too low! *facepalm*

Hope you get it sorted x

#1999688 - 12/15/12 06:24 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Barmybird]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 540
adultpianist Offline
500 Post Club Member
adultpianist  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 540
Can I just ask if the OP has got a medical condition which resulted in hand soreness which is completely non piano related? I practice a lot more than 30 minutes a day, especially when learning new pieces. I am frustrated until I get it right and that can take an hour or more. I never get sore hands. Professional concert pianists who play frequently with orchestras playing concertos do not get sore hands or they would discontinue doing what they do. I use a piano stool but before I had one, I used a dining chair which was too low. I have never played pieces more than two pages in length. Perhaps if I did play longer pieces on a regular basis, I would get sore hands too?

#1999719 - 12/15/12 09:30 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: adultpianist]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
Finland
My hands are not "sore" actually, what I get is nerve symptoms, tingling and if I don't stop I get pins and needles. Once after a too long and hard computer session (couldn't help it because of a deadline) my palm actually burned for the rest of the day.

In the beginning I had some muscle pains in my hands from playing large chords but those went away pretty soon after I got used to it. I also used to get muscle pain because my teacher forced me to sit straight and not hang my shoulders. After my first lessons I felt like I had had some pretty heavy exercise smile

Learning better technique has enabled me to play as long as I want without muscle pain or tiredness. The nerve issues unfortunately recur every now and then, but if I avoid certain pieces I can still play for 2 hours without any trouble.

#1999753 - 12/15/12 11:17 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
88slowpoke Offline
Full Member
88slowpoke  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 68
RI
OP here- I didn't realize what a popular topic this would be! My own situation, as a rank beginner with no lessons, was that I slipped into atrocious posture esp. with my left hand, while trying to play chords with the wrong fingerings, I still haven't decided whether to start lessons, but I'm paying strict attention to hand posture and that seems to be the answer. As far as learning to play piano concertos, and classical music in general, although I enjoy going to the symphony, I do not aspire to play this music. My playing aspirations tend toward non-classical- jazz, pop, the American songbook, etc. I realize some consider these genres not real piano playing, but so be it. When I grow up, I want to play just like Allen Dale. Check him out online, he has about 600 videos on YouTube.

#1999980 - 12/15/12 08:12 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 540
adultpianist Offline
500 Post Club Member
adultpianist  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 540
As I said, I do not get sore hands, but I do get a sore back from sitting at the piano for hours on end. I am a perfectionist and when I have a piece to learn, I am never satisfied until I have got it right and am impatient and will sit for hours going over it.

#2001333 - 12/18/12 07:43 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 504
justpin Offline
500 Post Club Member
justpin  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 504
Holmes Chapel
BUMP

Whenever I play a piece I am familiar with or some easy arrangements I don't get hand soreness.

But fast pieces especially repetitive pieces like Everyday by Carly Comando. Those make my hands sore real quick.


What is the issue here?

I can play anything from the two Aaron books without soreness but things with lots of triplets in it and lots of broken chords over and over.

It starts to get sore real quick.

#2001513 - 12/19/12 03:12 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Tough to diagnose based on that info, but you left a few clues to some pretty common issues that I think you can check a couple things and see if they don't help.

When you play pieces you already know, you tend to be more relaxed. When you are playing something you consider "fast", you tend to tense up. Look for locked fingers/hand positions, tightness in your forearms, gripping, an overall lack of fluidity (stop/start motions) in your arms/wrists. Any one of these can cause what you've described.

You may have a bad low wrist habit when playing things you aren't as familiar with. I don't know why this is common, but I've heard quite a few people now common that their wrists were too low, so it could be a common thread.

Also, when you play the same notes repetitively, your hand automatically tends to "lock" in one position. Vary it every so slightly to keep the motion going, your arms fluid and loose, and to help prevent muscle fatigue. Some people call it a "rocking" motion (up/down, left/right, small circles.. there are lots of ways to "rock", but the motions are VERY small so don't overdo it).

Hope it helps. If not, give us more symptoms. If you can post a video, even better.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2001514 - 12/19/12 03:12 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Sorry, double-post. I got an error message the first time.

Last edited by Derulux; 12/19/12 03:13 AM.

Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2001549 - 12/19/12 04:41 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
MaryAnn Offline
Full Member
MaryAnn  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
Japan
I played with both hands for the first time in ages last night in my lesson. Wow, did I get rusty! I didn't play long... I was too worried about what would happen. My wrist feels a little funny today, but not exactly sore (I wonder if I'm psyching myself out sometimes). I've also got the name of a doctor who treated a friend of my piano teacher, so hopefully I'll get a proper diagnosis soon. If it really is tendonitis as I suspect, I'm not sure what he can do, but then at least I will know for sure...

#2001604 - 12/19/12 09:42 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: Derulux]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 504
justpin Offline
500 Post Club Member
justpin  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 504
Holmes Chapel
I watched a few people online play the piece and they switch fingers.

It reminds me of some pieces in the Aaron book. Where if you hit the same note more than 2 times in sucession. It suggests you change fingers.

I tried and it seems a bit more comfortable.

#2023736 - 01/30/13 12:23 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
NikoKiko Offline
Full Member
NikoKiko  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
Interesting topic,
I have chronic pain in my right wrist from playing too much tennis and not letting it heal up completely, so I should know better but ....

I am a new piano player (6 months) but recently got a DP with graded keys.
Now, 2 weeks later I have pain in my left and right wrist from too much piano practice(6-7h / day) combined with bad body position. The bad position I caught early on.
My advice to everybody would be to let the injury heal completely even if it's minor.
It does NOT mean it's ready when the pain is gone, no no no, give it some time, really ! REALLY !!!
It all depends on the severity of the injury.
It may be from a week to 5-6 weeks.
If you don't wait, you are on the shortcut to chronic injury which is NOT good and leads to getting injured easier and more in the future with less load.


#2023769 - 01/30/13 02:11 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
MaryAnn Offline
Full Member
MaryAnn  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
Japan
An update on my left wrist pain: even though I was sure it was tendonitis, it turned out to be a ganglion cyst. It must have been small enough, even at the most painful time, that it wasn't visible on the surface. The doctor used MRI to do the diagnosis. While it's incredibly satisfying to have a definitive diagnosis, I'm not sure what it means for piano playing. Was it bad technique that caused it, or playing in general? Is it always going to be a problem now, even with good technique? The doctor said it was fine to play, so I'll go back to playing, with both hands (yay!), but I'm a little nervous that it will just flare up again. He said if it hurt again, to get it aspirated. Reading around a bit, I get the feeling that it will be easier to deal with than tendonitis.

Strangely, I had a ganglion cyst on my right wrist a long time ago. It came and went for about 5 years then just went away. It was huge, though, very visible from the outside, and simple to diagnose. It seemed to aggravated (and maybe caused by?) playing tennis and RSI from these ridiculous pipette cans at work (they were hard to get open).

#2024189 - 01/30/13 06:45 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: NikoKiko]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,682
Charles Cohen Online content
3000 Post Club Member
Charles Cohen  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,682
Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by NikoKiko
. . .

I am a new piano player (6 months) but recently got a DP with graded keys.
Now, 2 weeks later I have pain in my left and right wrist from too much piano practice(6-7h / day) combined with bad body position. The bad position I caught early on.
My advice to everybody would be to let the injury heal completely even if it's minor.



My advice would be not to practice 6-7 hours/day !!!! Even with perfect technique (which no beginner has), that's a heck of a heavy load.

A new keyboard (with different touch) just adds to the insult.

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
#2024389 - 01/31/13 02:25 AM Re: Hand soreness [Re: MaryAnn]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
Finland
Originally Posted by MaryAnn
An update on my left wrist pain: even though I was sure it was tendonitis, it turned out to be a ganglion cyst. It must have been small enough, even at the most painful time, that it wasn't visible on the surface. The doctor used MRI to do the diagnosis. While it's incredibly satisfying to have a definitive diagnosis, I'm not sure what it means for piano playing. Was it bad technique that caused it, or playing in general? Is it always going to be a problem now, even with good technique? The doctor said it was fine to play, so I'll go back to playing, with both hands (yay!), but I'm a little nervous that it will just flare up again. He said if it hurt again, to get it aspirated. Reading around a bit, I get the feeling that it will be easier to deal with than tendonitis.

Strangely, I had a ganglion cyst on my right wrist a long time ago. It came and went for about 5 years then just went away. It was huge, though, very visible from the outside, and simple to diagnose. It seemed to aggravated (and maybe caused by?) playing tennis and RSI from these ridiculous pipette cans at work (they were hard to get open).


I also have these ganglions, one was very visible on my left wrist. After I learned better tecnhique it suddenly diminished to almost invisible and I feel no pain from any of them really. So sometimes it's about technique and learning to use the wrist correctly. They don't know excatly why these things appear (I had my first when still in school) but maybe it has something to do with the way one uses the hands and that can be corrected? I would not advice surgery unless nothing else helps, my friend got nerve damage from this routine operation. It can sometimes be drained, although they often reapper.

#2024670 - 01/31/13 03:24 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
NikoKiko Offline
Full Member
NikoKiko  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
yes, Charles, I know, too much too soon. I was just too eager.
Now I know better.
Thanks for the advice.

So, not one but two ganglion cases so far. I am just wondering that there might be others like MaryAnn, undiagnosed who has it and it is invisible and deeper under the skin.
I guess improper technique combined with lots of repetition won't make it go away but just the opposite.

But how do you describe the "better technique" ?
It is not just the ergonimic and right position of the body/arms/wrists/fingers ? Right ?

#2024706 - 01/31/13 04:03 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: NikoKiko]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,989
Finland
Originally Posted by NikoKiko


But how do you describe the "better technique" ?
It is not just the ergonimic and right position of the body/arms/wrists/fingers ? Right ?


A very good question...For me it went like first just playing the way I felt like...getting a teacher... being forced to sit differently, stop hunching, stop pressing with my arms, holding my wrists up and solid, using more fingers...and doing all this while keeping my body relatively still. A very complicated task which has taken over a year and at times went completely wrong and caused problems. Then during the last few months it started feeling natural instead of wrong and I have been able to relax more. No more wrist problems. Getting my fingers to work the right way (without overcurling) has lessened the pressure on my wrist. I am in no way there yet, but I think getting the wrists more flexible and strong has made the ganglion go away (or diminish).

#2026436 - 02/03/13 06:40 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: 88slowpoke]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
NikoKiko Offline
Full Member
NikoKiko  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
it seems,for adult beginner, a teacher is a good way to get started with, even if you want to continue to learn by yourself later on
smile

#2026545 - 02/03/13 10:31 PM Re: Hand soreness [Re: NikoKiko]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
MaryAnn Offline
Full Member
MaryAnn  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 388
Japan
I have a tendency to drop my wrists when I play, especially the left hand. I also have bad tension problems. Learning how to release tension after playing a note is something my teacher and I are working on a lot.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Kawai or Yamaha for classical music?
by James Guo. 06/27/17 10:47 PM
I hope I'm still playing...
by Retsacnal. 06/27/17 10:02 PM
Playing Some (Not All) Movements of a Piece?
by ClsscLib. 06/27/17 08:13 PM
Should I give up piano lessons
by dat77. 06/27/17 08:10 PM
Schubert impromptu in A flat major op. 90
by Tuvdun574647. 06/27/17 05:25 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,493
Posts2,639,653
Members88,206
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0