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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991475
11/27/12 01:29 PM
11/27/12 01:29 PM
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lluiscl Offline
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Kamin: the recent Bechstein's don't have agraffes in the treble: they use capo bar and look (and sound) like an Hamburg (in my taste the D280 better). They change everything respect the old ones (which had too short scales and high iH).
Rafael, amigo: listen it with a good earphones and tell me if it has tiny sound...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyFDzw0ENqo

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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991478
11/27/12 01:31 PM
11/27/12 01:31 PM
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rXd Offline
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Sorry, I only know what I know. Both Bechsteins 9' grands i worked on were of current manufacture. They were well played in and ready for tone regulation. On both occasions I was asked by a prominent concert pianist to service these instruments. In my pitiful innocence regarding what Mr Fine says, I tailored the pianos to what I knew the pianists wanted. I was able to make them both very full at all dynamic ranges.

While I must admit the instruments I saw at the Berlin showroom were somewhat thin sounding, this was due to the treatment they were getting there, I knew from my factory tour that there had to be more there.

The ones I worked on (in rooms of approx 800-1000 seats) came up beautifully.

Sorry to be such a disappointment and please give my apologies to Mr. Fine, he seems to be very Important.

Hey, what is the American taste in piano tone, anyways? And where does anybody get off trying to be the arbiter of this? I was there for 30-odd years. All I know is that when given the option of thin and weak or full and strong, 'they' always chose full and strong like their coffee. Maybe it's just down to the sort of American I chose to associate with.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991485
11/27/12 01:52 PM
11/27/12 01:52 PM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Now you will say that all pianos around the world sound the same.

That there is no difference between asian, european and american pianos.

That voicing a piano can satisfy any pianist's taste, and so on...

I'm sorry, but that's not true. There are indeed different and characteristic tones. Chinesse pianos would never sound as German pianos, no matter how you voice and how you regulate them.

As I said before touch and tone are actual facts, measurable with instruments and not personal subjective interpretations.


Last edited by Gadzar; 11/27/12 01:53 PM.

Rafael Melo
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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: lluiscl] #1991500
11/27/12 02:23 PM
11/27/12 02:23 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by lluiscl
...


Rafael, amigo: listen it with a good earphones and tell me if it has tiny sound...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyFDzw0ENqo


It sounds great. I've never said it doesn't. I've said it's a superb instrument.

Unfortunately, this piece is full of chords in the bass and tenor, so it's not a good example to try to analyse the treble's tone.

But I've worked on many S&S and not so many C. Bechsteins and I know for sure how they sound like. They're indeed different, in sound and touch, and all I am trying to do is to describe what I've heard.

I have no other intention than trying to translate into words what I hear.

To my personal taste, yes I prefer Steinway, but I know there are many that prefer C. Bechstein and I respect them.

Can you tell me what differences if any do you find between Steinway and C. Bechstein?


Last edited by Gadzar; 11/27/12 02:23 PM.

Rafael Melo
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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991522
11/27/12 03:11 PM
11/27/12 03:11 PM
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rXd Offline
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Sorry, Raphael, we seem to be touching a nerve.

You did not read exactly what I wrote and now you are attempting a 'reductio ad absurdam'.

It makes everything you wrote after you wrote "next you will be saying....." seem a trifle silly when it is understood that you are employing this cheap arguing technique.

Please make your point another way and I will be happy to listen.



Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991529
11/27/12 03:23 PM
11/27/12 03:23 PM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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I don´t matter care what makes you happy at all.

If you're happy better for you, if not then I'm sorry.

Can you tell please what differences you find between Bechstein and Steinway?

Have you any experience with Steinway?

You have said nothing about it!


Last edited by Gadzar; 11/27/12 03:29 PM.

Rafael Melo
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Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: rXd] #1991542
11/27/12 03:42 PM
11/27/12 03:42 PM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by rxd
...

Sorry to be such a disappointment and please give my apologies to Mr. Fine, he seems to be very Important.

Hey, what is the American taste in piano tone, anyways? And where does anybody get off trying to be the arbiter of this? I was there for 30-odd years...



Another question:

Must I understand that you've worked on pianos for 30 years and in all that time you have not read the Larry Fine's "The piano Book"?



Rafael Melo
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991563
11/27/12 04:35 PM
11/27/12 04:35 PM
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rXd Offline
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Raphael,

Apart from a misunderstanding of my context, which may be a cultural thing, picking on just one word and taking it out of context is also a cheap arguing trick.

Approx 90% of my work is currently with Hamburg Steinways. I am 10 years out of touch with NY Steinways.

As I have worked at some time or other for many of the manufacturers and still do, I prefer not to be drawn into making direct comparisons between them. strange, I know, particularly since it puts me in an ideal position to make comparisons, but I'm sure you can understand. I work best with whatever happens to be in front of me with little regard for who made it.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991578
11/27/12 05:06 PM
11/27/12 05:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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I understand,

But you spontaneously did say that you voiced out the two Bechsteins to a big round treble.

What about Steinways you work on?

How do you describe their treble's tone?


PS: Have you read "The Piano Book"?





Rafael Melo
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991591
11/27/12 05:29 PM
11/27/12 05:29 PM
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rXd Offline
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Sorry, Raphael, I missed your interim post. Yes, I read the original Larry Fine epistle as many of us did and remember it clearly. I still thumb throgh a copy occasionally when I'm in a piano store. They give it away in piano stores here. If I want to know about a certain piano I can go look for myself.

My colleagues in the Conservatories are deeply interested in how pianos hold up when tested to destruction by 14 hours a day of abuse by students who haven't yet mastered the art of tone production but still sometimes hammer away at huge two fisted piano concertos in small rooms with the lid down.

This is a whole different ball game.

I am fortunate enought to have not seen a Chinese or Korean piano for many years but am interested in how they might hold up in extremis. Larry doesn't help me here and nor is it his intention. Is there yet a chapter on this?


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991595
11/27/12 05:36 PM
11/27/12 05:36 PM
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rXd Offline
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Gosh, Raphael, you're like a dog with a bone. I just got through telling you. Read me again with particular attention to the exact words I use.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991694
11/27/12 09:38 PM
11/27/12 09:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,626
Philadelphia area
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Dave B Offline
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Here is a nice example of a Bosendorfer with orchestra. I'm looking for an example with orchestra in full tutti.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=IvhxfXeGees


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Gadzar] #1991705
11/27/12 10:06 PM
11/27/12 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
I understand,

But you spontaneously did say that you voiced out the two Bechsteins to a big round treble.

What about Steinways you work on?

How do you describe their treble's tone?


PS: Have you read "The Piano Book"?


The Piano Book is a valuable tool, but I'm sure Mr. Fine himself would agree that he's not God. Regardless, it's silly to make generalizations about the products of two piano companies that have been in business since the 1850s.

Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Dave B] #1991708
11/27/12 10:12 PM
11/27/12 10:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by Dave B
Here is a nice example of a Bosendorfer with orchestra. I'm looking for an example with orchestra in full tutti.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=IvhxfXeGees


This is a good example of that thin treble I am speaking about.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: beethoven986] #1991718
11/27/12 10:30 PM
11/27/12 10:30 PM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by beethoven986
... it's silly to make generalizations about the products of two piano companies that have been in business since the 1850s.


???

What is the subject of this thread?


And, if my memory doesn't fail, C. Bechstein has been rescued more than once in it's history. Otherwise it has been broken long ago. The same happened to Bösendorfer.

I guess you think C. Bechstein is the best piano in the world and you are not going to accept arguments against that.




Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Gadzar] #1991758
11/28/12 12:42 AM
11/28/12 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar

???

What is the subject of this thread?


You fail to understand my point, which is, one cannot generalize a piano company's product in this way. Touch and tone are going to vary from one piano to the next within the same manufacturer, especially as they are voiced to suit the demands of whoever owns the piano. At the factory level, this will also vary, especially over a period of decades due to different musical tastes.


Originally Posted by Gadzar
And, if my memory doesn't fail, C. Bechstein has been rescued more than once in it's history. Otherwise it has been broken long ago. The same happened to Bösendorfer.


See above.


Originally Posted by Gadzar
I guess you think C. Bechstein is the best piano in the world and you are not going to accept arguments against that.


If I thought that, it wouldn't be an unreasonable opinion. I respect Bechstein, but I wouldn't call it my favorite. Furthermore, I suggest you refrain from jumping to conclusions... it makes you look a tad ridiculous.

Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: beethoven986] #1991766
11/28/12 01:46 AM
11/28/12 01:46 AM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Originally Posted by beethoven986

You fail to understand my point, which is, one cannot generalize a piano company's product in this way. Touch and tone are going to vary from one piano to the next within the same manufacturer, especially as they are voiced to suit the demands of whoever owns the piano.


Voicing can modify piano's tone only to a certain point, but there is a limit in what voicing can do. There are many other factors that characterize the tone of a piano, in particular: design, material and crown of the soundboard, scale's design, bridges, etc.

The same happens with touch, it is the design of the keyboard and action that gives a piano it's characteristic touch, you can modify it to a certain point but there's a limit.

So, yes, one can indeed make generalizations about a company's product in the way I do.

Each brand is different in design and materials and has particularities that define its own and unique character.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

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Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991770
11/28/12 02:01 AM
11/28/12 02:01 AM
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Oakland
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For all that, it boils down to what I said earlier. It is a matter of taste.


Semipro Tech
Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991785
11/28/12 02:46 AM
11/28/12 02:46 AM
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Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Between Steinway & Bechstein, yes it is a matter of taste.

But my point is that each brand has its own characteristic tone and touch.

One can not take a chinese grand and make it sound and feel like a Steinway just by voicing and regulation!




Rafael Melo
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rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: C. Bechstein v. Steinway [Re: Inchoate] #1991799
11/28/12 03:21 AM
11/28/12 03:21 AM
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Oakland
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Sometimes you can. More often, you can take a Steinway grand sound and feel like a Chinese grand just by voicing and regulation!

(That is a joke, actually. There are Chinese grands that I think can be made to sound better than what might be called top-tier grands with decent regulation and voicing, particularly among the smaller sizes.)


Semipro Tech
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