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I am considering a mid-90s Steinway L and a late 90s C. Bechstein M-180. Both are in very good condition and sound fabulous, but different. I'm wondering if any readers have observations about these pianos, particularly the technical reputation of the Bechstein? Thank you.

Bechstein should need no introduction. It is a world-class piano, and all other things being equal, a better instrument than what Steinway was building in the '90s.

Steinway has an American tone, while Bechstein has an European sound, which may be too "light" for the american taste.

Both are world-class pianos.

That's an incredibly simplistic view, and an inaccurate one, as well, IMO.

beethoven986:

Of course it is a simplistic view, it takes only two lines of text.

But to be more accurate and elaborate a little on what I mean I will quote Mr. Larry Fine, author of the well known and very high reputed "The Piano Book". In page 85 of the third edition one can read:

The tone of Bechstein grands is what one might call "classically European". It is very clean and thin in the treble and emphasizes the fundamental rather than harmonics in the bass. Those of us who grew up on the sound of American pianos may find the Bechstein sound somewhat alien, though interesting. I personally find it to be quite lovely at low volumes, the clearly articulated attack giving it a delicate character, but sometimes find it too bright for my taste at higher volumes. I also prefer a more pronounced singing quality and a heavier action than the Bechstein provides. These are, of course, a matter of personal preference; many pianists revere the Bechstein, and it is considered to be one of the world's pre-eminent pianos.

IMO, this "thinness" in the treble is what characterizes the "European tone". One can find the same kind of thinness in the Bösendorfers and Petrofs.

I agree with you that Bechstein is a world-class piano, but IMO it is not better than Steinway.

There are several great brands of pianos: Bechstein, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Falcone, Fazioli, August Förster, Grotrian, Mason & Hamlin, Steinway.

Which is better?

For me it is a matter of personal preference, as says Mr. Fine. When speaking of pianos, nothing is written in stone. Two identical pianos, same brand, same model, same year of manufacture, will sound different and will play (feel) different.

I agree.
The newest concert series D-280 from Bechstein are simply incredible. All less light.
Probably Mr. Fine needs an updated...

I just think they sound different. Deciding between them is a matter of taste.

Bechstein.... what is there to discuss?

The Steinway will have better resale value.

I've not found a good example in Youtube of a C. Bechstein, but
listen to that thin (light) treble of the "European Tone":

Victor Borge playing Debussy's Clair de Lune on a Bösendorfer.

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_evCoEVaTQE


Definitely, I prefer the more robust and deeper sound of Steinways.

Here is the update:

C. Bechstein grands are impeccably made in Europe with the customary brighter tone that Europeans prefer, and may need considerable voicing to suit the American musical taste. (However, several of my colleagues had high praise for the wide dynamic range, tonal color, and responsive action of the recently redesigned 7' 8" model C grand.) The company maintains that since voicing is a matter of overall piano design, their pianos are voiced at the factory to their tonal standard and should not be altered. Some customers may still prefer the slightly warmer sound of the Academy grands, which are also about half the price.

Extracted from the Fine's web site, fall 2012.

You can read it complete here:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall12/154.html

No offense to Mr. Fine, but I wouldn't take that too literally.

You are entitled to your own preferences. If you like C. Bechstein over other pianos there is no offense to anyone.

That said, there is a notorious difference in tone between C. Bechstein and Steinway.

So, to answer the OP's question: I think both are superb pianos, none is better than the other IMO, it is a matter of personal taste.

Steinway favors harmonics in the bass, while Bechstein favors fundamentals. In the treble Bechstein is brighter than Steinway. Bechstein have lighter actions than Steinway. These are objective (measurable) differences in touch and tone. They exist for real and are not subject to personal interpretations.

The point is knowing what the differences are to decide which piano you prefer.

I would not say that Bechteins of the 90 are lighter than Steinway Raphaël, nor that they are known for their bright treble, that sounds to be quite the opposite in my opinion (sorry)

Treble of the Bechstein may sound a little weak (for the models with agrafes all along the top) while the treble of Steiwnay (Hamburg) is well reputed as the better part of the scale.

The Steinway action can be made light or no (again, Hamburg, I dont know really for the NY one , the ones I have seen have more lead in the keys than the German ones, possibly my answer is not taking that in account then)


best regards

The Bechsteins I played at the NYC Bechstein Center(now closed) fit this description quite well.

???

I don't know if I understand what you mean. You say that treble of Bechsteins is a litle weak and that in the Steinways this is the better part of the scale.

That is in accordance with what I say. Apparently we all have the same impression of the treble of Bechsteins: I used the word "light treble", you say "weak treble", Larry Fine says "thin treble". I think we are saying the same with different words.

About Steinways, I said "more robust" opposed to "light", you say "the better part of the scale" opposed to "weak", Larry Fine says "more pronounced singing quality" opposed to "thin".

I guess the three of us are talking the same, using our own different words.

I don't know much about the smaller pianos but both of the recent (2-3yrs old) 9' Bechsteins I have serviced have been found capable of a big round treble without a lot of work. The rest of the piano matched beautifully.

I don't know if current pianos are made the same as they were in the '90's but that's been my albeit limited experience of current Bechsteins. The much older, smaller Bechsteins are also capable of fuller trebles than the way they are generally presented.

Same goes for Blüthner.

Found capable ... without a lot of work!

Mr. Fine says that you must voice the Bechsteins to meet the "American" taste.

Come on guys! I can not believe it!

I am really surprised that every one is trying to negate what surprised me the first time I played a concert grand Bechstein:

It has a tiny, thin, light, weak, bright, you name it, treble!!!

sorry Raphael, my limited vocabulary.

The all agrafes Bechstein can have a nice round treble but limited in dynamics.

The Bluethner of that era have the larger dynamics and power I ever gind on a small piano.. you simply cannot have them saturate, and the tone is bright and full, all that I like.

Bechstein tend to "crash" sooner due to their large iH and spectral differences within the unissons... that gives them a very pleasing tone at softer levels.

But let the OP tell us what is his experience,

Have you played both pianos?

What are your thoughts about their tone and feeling (touch)?

Which one do you prefer?