Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
112 registered members (36251, astrotoy, Akaitsuki, AWilley, ando, 604Rakuda, amad23, aphexdisklavier, accordeur, 30 invisible), 1,698 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? #1991127
11/26/12 03:37 PM
11/26/12 03:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
4evrBeginR Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
As a customer, I wonder if there is a standard that tuners use in the industry. Do you try to get a triple octave in tune, or do you shoot for 2 octaves to be in tune and the third a bit off, or do you just go for perfect single octaves, and let the 2nd and 3rd octave be where they may? I'm curious because I would think these choices would alter the general sound of the tuning quite a bit, and is there any standard? Thanks.

(ad 800)
PTG Journals
PTG Journal
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991132
11/26/12 03:48 PM
11/26/12 03:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,748
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,748
Oakland
"In tune" is such a vague term. I try to have as many intervals as possible sound as close to what they should sound like as possible.


Semipro Tech
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991134
11/26/12 03:51 PM
11/26/12 03:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,355
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,355
Old Hangtown California
None, they are all out of tune.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: Gene Nelson] #1991144
11/26/12 04:06 PM
11/26/12 04:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
4evrBeginR Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
None, they are all out of tune.


Yes, I understand, but there's out of tune, and then there's out of tune.

Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: BDB] #1991147
11/26/12 04:14 PM
11/26/12 04:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
4evrBeginR Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
Originally Posted by BDB
"In tune" is such a vague term. I try to have as many intervals as possible sound as close to what they should sound like as possible.


Maybe I'll say it differently. On my piano if I play C4 and C5 together, they sound "in tune" (same for B4/B5, A4/A5, etc etc). If I play C4 and C6 together, they also sound "in tune", but if I play C4 and C7 together, they sound "out of tune". However, if I play C5 and C7 together, they sound "in tune". Is this a standard way of tuning? Do all tuners try to get single and two octaves to sound in tune but not three octaves or is it just my piano that sounds this way?

Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991154
11/26/12 04:29 PM
11/26/12 04:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,748
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,748
Oakland
I cannot hear what you are hearing, so I cannot say.


Semipro Tech
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991165
11/26/12 05:12 PM
11/26/12 05:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 551
London, England
P
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member
Phil D  Offline
500 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 551
London, England
There isn't a standard. Just an infinite number of different ways of making the compromise.

If you don't like the way the tenor of your piano sounds with the top treble, then it can be tuned differently. Talk to your tuner about it.

Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991184
11/26/12 06:23 PM
11/26/12 06:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Boston, MA
T
Tunewerk Offline
500 Post Club Member
Tunewerk  Offline
500 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 585
Boston, MA
There is no standard, just a vast array of aesthetic compromises that different tuners make. Some have an educated reason, others just do what they've been taught or the only thing they know.

It heavily depends on the scaling of your piano. Concert tuning usually errs towards triple octaves and even beyond, but the inharmonicity is lower on these pianos to allow this.

It sounds like you have a very standard [edit: common] tuning on your piano. It is sometimes technically possible to get all single, double and triple octaves 'in-tune', but this requires a good scale. If the triple octaves are noticeably flat to the untrained ear on your piano, I'd guess your scale will require compromises that will knock the single out as you align the triple.

Last edited by Tunewerk; 11/27/12 12:29 PM.

www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991193
11/26/12 06:40 PM
11/26/12 06:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,355
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,355
Old Hangtown California
You are talking about octaves being in tune and you are listening to single, double and triple octaves.
A single octave will not have the same character as a double octave and a triple octave will be different from the double and single.
If the piano has recently been tuned you can compare single, double and triple octaves chromatically across the keyboard and each one should have similar character, however - depending on the piano, each octave type will vary somewhat from bass to treble.
Also, check individual notes to be certain you are not being fooled by an out of tune unison - and then there are false beats and other noise that makes it interesting.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991196
11/26/12 06:51 PM
11/26/12 06:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
@4ever.. if you play 2 notes together, at 2 , 3 or 4 ocatves distance tyour pitch perception will differ than if you play one then the next.

High treble is sometime tuned to advantage arpeggios or broken octaves, (then the pitch can be as high as 1/4 tone , but can also be tuned to be in resonance with the octave below.
depending of the context the higher note will tone a hair low (in my way) if compared straight with a medium note, but this is only a fast impression, one cannot be sure I believe it is just the ear that is asking for a higher pitch, not the brain.

when a tuning is well done, even low bass and high treble sound at the good pitch. (anyway to me !)
But that is a question on how the central octaves are enlarged, the more they are, the less the high treble will sound low.

They are always a little enlarged due to the piano, then the tuner is obliged to enlarge also higher, but there are nuances and it depends of the piano itself


Last edited by Kamin; 11/26/12 06:54 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991213
11/26/12 07:46 PM
11/26/12 07:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,646
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,646
Strong, Maine
I'll second BDB's responses. Don't obsess. It's only music. wink


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991234
11/26/12 08:58 PM
11/26/12 08:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,232
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,232
Olympia, WA
Piano tuning tradition, at least within the Piano Technicians Guild, recommends different size octaves for different areas of the piano.

Generally speaking, the octaves in the middle of the piano will be narrower than the octaves in the high treble and low bass.

On some pianos there is a pretty big difference between triple octaves and double octaves in the high treble. Compromising between the two seems to make the most sense to me.

The reality is that my tuning relies more heavily on 3rds and 6ths in the middle registers, and 10ths and 17ths in the outer registers. The octaves are more of a check to make sure I'm not over-stretching. To me, the vibrato that these intervals produce has a big influence on the character of the tuning: too slow and the piano sounds dull, too fast and it sounds "edgy".



Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991255
11/26/12 10:26 PM
11/26/12 10:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
If your piano is a grand, 6+ feet, and you are hearing out-of-tune single/double/triple octaves, I would suggest that maybe the tuner hasn't progressed in their skill that far yet. Especially if you hear a variation in the amount of out-of-tuneness as you move chromatically through the single/double/triple octaves.
I started really trying to make the treble "sing" by tuning pure 12ths. Using a test for a pure 3:1 12th, I was able to get consistent octaves all the way up, (98% RPT with the graph matching the change in string diameter) and that sounded great to me, until I began wanting better double octaves. Now I am tempering the 12ths in favour of the double octave. The octave is slightly wide 4:2, narrow 6:3 (mid section to high treble, as per RPT) and a slightly narrow 3:1 12th and a slightly wide 8:1 double octave. All these are occasionally verified with checks, but I prefer to tune the octaves "beatless" which many will say is impossibly. But when I tune a good octave that is consistently between the 4:2 and 6:3 at the same spot, it has a quality that I can only describe as "beatless". I theorize that the beat at the 4:2 cancels the beat at the 6:3 and the beat at the 2:1 cancels the beat at the 8:4. If this is truly what is happening, then the octave is indeed beatless. Much like we can tune out a false beat by tuning the unison to cancel the false beat. In conclusion, look for consistent single/double/triple octave quality. If you got that, you will be able to request a favouring of one or the other from your technician. Realize that you can't have them all "pure". Especially on a smaller piano.
GREAT question! I love this stuff.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991260
11/26/12 10:54 PM
11/26/12 10:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,415
Québec, Canada
accordeur Online content
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,415
Québec, Canada
Sorry about that, I was out of line.

Last edited by accordeur; 11/27/12 04:09 PM. Reason: Apology

Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991264
11/26/12 11:21 PM
11/26/12 11:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Originally Posted by 4evrBeginR
Originally Posted by BDB
"In tune" is such a vague term. I try to have as many intervals as possible sound as close to what they should sound like as possible.


Maybe I'll say it differently. On my piano if I play C4 and C5 together, they sound "in tune" (same for B4/B5, A4/A5, etc etc). If I play C4 and C6 together, they also sound "in tune", but if I play C4 and C7 together, they sound "out of tune". However, if I play C5 and C7 together, they sound "in tune". Is this a standard way of tuning? Do all tuners try to get single and two octaves to sound in tune but not three octaves or is it just my piano that sounds this way?


If you tune C7 to be in tune with C4 then C6-C7 will surely be out of tune. In piano tuning there are compromises, you can't have all intervals perfectly tuned.

And there is no standard. It is up to the tuner to decide how much he stresses the tuning. Though, in the Tuning examination of the PTG, the upper octave must be tuned as a 2:1 type, which sounds good harmonically (in chords) but flat when played melodically (in arpeggios).



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: Mark Cerisano] #1991267
11/26/12 11:39 PM
11/26/12 11:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
4evrBeginR Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
Thank you for responses from everyone. To answer Mark Cerisano directly, the single, double, and triple octave are not inconsistent on my piano. They sound very consistent chromatically up and down the piano. Every single and double octaves sounds really good, and triple octave just so slightly off, and this is the case no matter what starting note you pick. I have a new 6'1" Yamaha. For some reason the piano sounds a bit different from when it was at the store. Once I have it at home, it still sounds like when it was at the store, but once my own tech tunes it, it changes. It's not bad at all, just different. I guess that's why I asked the question, and it seems every tech has a different way of tuning.

Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991271
11/27/12 12:07 AM
11/27/12 12:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,748
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,748
Oakland
A new piano is not going to be as stable as an older piano, and there just may be things that both you and your piano are getting used to.


Semipro Tech
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991296
11/27/12 01:51 AM
11/27/12 01:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,070
Michigan
K
kpembrook Offline
Platinum Subscriber
kpembrook  Offline
Platinum Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,070
Michigan
Originally Posted by 4evrBeginR
As a customer, I wonder if there is a standard that tuners use in the industry. Do you try to get a triple octave in tune, or do you shoot for 2 octaves to be in tune and the third a bit off, or do you just go for perfect single octaves, and let the 2nd and 3rd octave be where they may? I'm curious because I would think these choices would alter the general sound of the tuning quite a bit, and is there any standard? Thanks.


All of 'em.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991406
11/27/12 10:52 AM
11/27/12 10:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
James Carney Offline
Full Member
James Carney  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
Don't forget that the voicing of the piano has a tremendous influence on our perception of what constitutes "in tune."

If your Yamaha grand has brightened up since purchase there will be more higher partials present in the tone - which makes the necessary compromises even more challenging. Room acoustics also play a big role in how we hear tuning and voicing. Many times there is lots of acoustic distortion present in a client home due to the placement of the piano.

Also, lots of great comments above, and Tunewerk is especially spot on - scaling is the big deal here...The best scale designs make the piano much easier to tune throughout the compass.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Re: How many octaves do you choose to be in tune? [Re: 4evrBeginR] #1991544
11/27/12 03:56 PM
11/27/12 03:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
4evrBeginR Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
I should perhaps clarify that my tuner S. Skylark has a very strong reputation in the SF Bay Area, and he is a known concert tuner, also tunes for many performing artists and venues. He is also a Boesendorfer factory trained tuner, etc.

My question is brought on by the fact that all the pianos at the stores sound one way, sort of a generic kind of piano sound regardless of brand. A new 6-foot Yamaha at the store sounds good but also in a generic kind of way. When my tech finishes with mine, it sounds different, a bit darker, edgier, perhaps more like Schumann and Schubert, and less Mozart and Beethoven kind of a way.

I know one of the response advises I should not obssess. I am sure I could get used to it. But I am more curious if I am just imagining things, or if any tuning could actually make this kind of difference.

I should also say that I have been working with the same tech for 3 years, and recently upgrade a 5' piano to a 6' piano. I have noticed that for both pianos, they no longer sound like the samples at the store after he worked on them. I enjoy my relationship with Mr. Skylark and cannot imagine using someone else. He is a consummate professional. However, I just wonder short of attending piano tech school myself, how do pianists communicate with their techs? You may look at us like a bunch of idiots, but I have to say it's not easy to communicate the sound that is in my head versus the sound that I am hearing.

In any case, I always believe that time spent with a techs in person or on the forum is always an education.

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
New Casio hybrid piano
by MacMacMac. 10/21/19 05:05 PM
4sound in Sweden - bankrupt
by tangothomas. 10/21/19 04:41 PM
Grand Sustain Pedal Not Working
by Duaner. 10/21/19 04:05 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,655
Posts2,881,805
Members94,725
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1