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I do not understand why someone who feels that a piano is too loud would want to play a piano. I was playing a customer's clavichord the other day, and it has its charms.

I disagree with Del Fandrich quite often on this board. Other people do, too, just less publicly.

That's a major failure of logic, Mr/Ms Turandot. My paradigm includes all possibilities: Some people find pianos are too loud and need to take action to correct it. Some people find them fine and are perfectly happy with the volume levels. This is all inclusive and doesn't negate anybody's opinions.

Your paradigm says that pianos are either fine, or that all attempts to reduce the volume levels must be confined to suppression on wall surfaces or by voicing, or by player dynamics. You leave out the possibility of acoustic foam suppression altogether - as though it has no place in the equation.

Summary: my argument is inclusive of all variations, yours is exclusive of some.

I'm not a proponent of interfering with the soundboard mechanically, but putting foam baffles beneath the soundboard - either attached to the frame or even sitting on the floor can be a great way of enormously reducing the volume levels. It can potentially remove most of the sound that is directed to the floor. Besides, how is that any different to putting a big thick rug on the floor or having wall hangings and curtains? You are only talking about proximity to the soundboard. What's the difference? The tone is able to be projected two ways from the soundboard, from the back or from the front. Attenuating sound from the back makes plenty of sense to a lot of people - as evidenced by the great many very thick rugs place under grand pianos. I don't understand why you have such a problem with that. Or why you think absorbing sound 3 feet below a piano is fundamentally different from absorbing sound 2 inches below the soundboard. It's all the same stuff.

That is just absurd, BDB! We are happy to play piano because we find solutions to the problem! We do put noise suppression in, or we use the una corda pedal a lot. It's not a case of "love everything about it, or quit".

the thing is that pianos mostly are a variation on one design: Steinway

Steinway's technicians from the outset did everything possible to get as much volume possible from their pianos..

this was to fill large halls..

needless to say that the vast majority of people do not put their pianos in concert halls..

but since everything has to be standardized today, seemingly, people don't have a choice and perhaps would be intimidated by one.. or perhaps not.

fact is that you could build a quieter, lighter-framed piano which might even be a little smaller (narrower) and less obtrusive in the home..

the lighter sound would permit to get more sweetness in the tone as well.

Slow down.

I never wrote that an acoustic foam treatment under a grand or even a foam blanket over the strings was a terrible thing to do. My response was to an OP who wanted to temporarily quiet his vertical. In responding to his question I didn't tell him to avoid acoustic foam at all costs. I simply suggested that if he wanted to use it, he might first assess the sound properties of his space ,and that if he resorted to foam, he might consider buying a roll and cutting it himself to save on cost. I thought cost might be a consideration in that he wanted to know more about stuffing pillows between the backposts.

It's true I prefer treating the space to muffling the instrument at its sound source, but I made my reason clear. It allows for better differentiation in dynamics at the quiet end of the dynamic range. No one has to agree with that. It's my opinion based on my own experience and I stated that bluntly.

I can't speak for BDB, for piano technicians, or for people who sell pianos professionally, but to my eyes, Dave's lament doesn't resonate. His strategies to suppress his piano are DIY stuff. He is coping with a defined hearing problem. His brand of choice has consistently been Yamaha, whose pianos are characterized by a distinct percussive attack that a lot of people relate to and others don't. His conclusion based on his experience and his own failed remedies is that all acoustic pianos are too loud. I don't buy it. Apparently you do.

One of the most common problems with pianos is that a lot of people who don't play well like to play loud. There are a lot more pocket Horowitzes out there than pocket Lipattis. That's just life. Another problem is that a lot of people don't take into account when shopping that the showroom space is not the same as their home environment and that a piano that stands out sonically in the showroom may well roar, screech, and boom in their own space. A third problem is that the ability to play softly requires more diligence in practice than the ability to whack the keys. Some people never get there and instead arrive at the conclusion that their instrument is at fault. In the case of this thread, the conclusion has been generalized to the point that all pianos are at fault.

There are plenty of pianos on the market that play more quietly than others. There are variables in static and dynamic touch weight, hammer profile, stringing and string tension, scale designs, sounbdoard design, etc. to allow a player real choices if the player is not hooked by the cheap thrills of a booming lower bass and/or a lyrical singing treble. It just goes too far to say that all pianos are too loud and must be suppressed.

I will grant you that there are pianos which are more difficult to manage in a home environment than others, but not that all pianos are intrinsically too loud. That's like saying that the Cholula is just too hot for you, so all hot chili sauces are simply too hot.

Let's face it. Some people use power to offset their own slipshod playing. The growling bass that sells certain grands will mask certain deficiencies of the player, as will the long sustain, and the unbalanced scale. A lot of pianos feature the big bass, the singing treble, and pure boredom in the midrange where counter-melodies reside. Resonance, grand length,long sustain, and bestial tendencies all sell, but there's much more to a piano than that. How many players play to the full capabilities of their instrument? How many tap the full range of possibilities in its dynamic range? Many people theorize that they have outgrown their piano when they are nowhere near to matching its capabilities. That's just life too. Need an excuse to upgrade? "It's not good enough for me anymore" will work. The sales pro will readily confirm that for you even if your playing is dreadful.

I'm sympathetic to Dave's problems. It's obvious from the playing samples in his tag that he plays his instrument with talent and sensitivity. Maybe the problem is that he's been brand-centric and heavy on DIY solutions that could do more damage than good. Whatever, I don't have a dog in the race here. To each his own as long as each is willing to allow others the same privilege.

I'm quite confident that if you read my posts again, you will see that this was never in doubt from my side. It was BDB who was had his knickers in a twist at the presentation of another opinion. Suggesting people give up piano if they think it's to loud...? Please!

I do think that you slightly overstate the idea that somebody with virtuosic technique will be untroubled by volume in a home environment. If you take the example of a person preparing for a recital in a large hall. They would ideally like to use a similar amount of muscular effort in preparing their pieces at home as they will use in the performance venue. In a large space, the power is diffused by a very large volume of air, and by many absorbent surfaces, including the audience. At home, the scale is much smaller, but the piano hasn't been scaled down with it - certainly not to the correct degree. That's why it's harder to achieve a happy balance at home. I for one, have never felt overwhelmed by the volume of a concert piano in a hall - as a listener or a player. I've played a 9ft Steinway in a hall that seats 600 people. A large powerful piano is magnificent in such a venue where you can use all the power without it shaking your brain into oblivion. But in confined spaces, like modest living rooms, most pianos are very powerful - too powerful for my taste. I prefer to use whatever means are at my disposal to get them into a dynamic range that suits me and that happens to match how I feel if I play in a large hall. Just using a lighter touch doesn't accomplish everything because you may end up with too mellow a tone for the piece of music. There is a real trade off between tone and volume. Some pieces need to push the tone of the piano into a brighter, more strident region. If you are holding back so it doesn't get too loud, you may be sacrificing the tone you want. Using foam behind a soundboard an allow you to push harder and use a brighter tone without pushing to uncomfortable volumes.

Now you can question my skills in not wanting to adjust my whole technique to feel comfortable playing very lightly on the keyboard (I already have a very soft touch in general), by all means question my skills! But I still don't see why somebody shouldn't make use of very useful stuff like acoustic foam to assist in replicating the dynamic range of a larger hall. It just makes sense to me. I think a lot of people end up treating this problem from the other end too: that is, by building a very large purpose built music room, or purchasing a large house so they can accommodate a nice big piano. But as I said, people can do as they will. The only thing I'm protesting is remarks of the type from BDB - as though it's sacrilege to subjectively feel that a piano is too powerful them.

Ando,

Thank you for slowing down.

First of all, I never presumed that you were some ham-fisted hack who couldn't harness his instrument. I was posting to the way things are, including what seems to sell well in the piano marketplace. Actually,I have been one to comment on this forum that many complain that their piano is too loud in their home, whereas virtually no one comes here looking for suggestions on how to make his piano louder.

Second, I can't speak for BDB, but as a layman, I winced at some of the techniques that Dave mentioned. I don't think Dave's posted strategies indicated that he was sharing his problem with a competent piano technician. This might be a reason for someone to assume that he was not taking care of his piano properly. I don't know that, but it's a possibility.

Third, I really don't have a problem with foam. I've used it behind a loud 50" vertical that I had for a while in a smallish room with hardwood floors and lots of glass. The best result for me was using self-stick foam squares set in a checkerboard pattern on the wall behind the piano. I found it more satisfying than stuffing the cavities between the posts with foam. However, that's just one person's experience with one piano in one room and subject to one's personal taste. so I didn't try to sell that idea to the OP here.

Fourth, as I mentioned twice, my general preference has to do with letting the instrument breathe rather than suppressing it at its sound source. I feel that suppression at the source compresses the dynaic range all the way across. It's not a limiter like you find on some recording equipment where only the over-the-top signals are affected. Still, I'm not trying to sell that idea to others either. I'm content to satisfy my own taste and objectives.

With that in mind, I'll eject myself from this topic and let you and BDB resolve whatever needs to be resolved. Have an enjoyable and rewarding holiday weekend.

I'm not sure BDB and I are going to get to that point, but I've enjoyed our chat, Turandot - you never fail to offer some interesting ideas. Happy holidays to you! (we don't have thanksgiving in Australia)

I wouldn't try spray foam insulation. But, I recently moved from a 3500 sq ft place in Houston TX to a 1000 sq ft place in San Francisco, and I came up with a good way to quiet the piano that has worked well for me, and the neighbors never complain about noise.

I bought some sheets of 1" styrofoam and cut it out to fit the inner rim size of the piano. It ends up sitting atop the strut arms of the plate and not touching any part of the soundboard or strings. Then, atop that is a 1/2" wool felt pad, actually a high-end carpet pad, with no chemeical treatments in it, that I cut to sit atop the styrofoam. The idea here is to establish a platform to dampen sound and keep the wool, the better sound damper, from touching the strings. The styrofoam platform does minor dampening and keeps the layer of wool off the strings. The wool effectively dampens the decibles by over 50% without making the sound really muffled. I also have a thick cotton/canvas padded cover for the piano which I just push back from the music deck area when I play. I have another wool cutout for the bottom of the piano that attaches by some Velcro fasteners, but then the piano sounds a bit muffled, and since the neighbors don't complain about the sound without the bottom felt on, I mostly leave it off.

Let me know if you'd like some pics of the setup and I can try to post some. UPS packing stores sell sheets of styrofoam, though I recycled mine from the packing of a desk. The wool I got from a high end carpet store. It was about $75 per sq yard, and conveniently came at about the exact width of the inner rim measurement of the grand piano. The piano cover, on the other hand, might be pricey. I bought mine from an auction for $100, but I think the original price was around $400.

I should also mention that I have a thick wool rug underneath the piano with a rug pad of the same 1/2" wool rug pad as I used IN the piano underneath the rug. This is both decorative, and for sound insulation for the downstairs neighbors.

I think some people who feel their pianos are too loud have some problem with their technique that's the real culprit. To be able to play pp without producing ghost(non sounding) notes is not an elementary technique that is usually mastered by beginners/intermediates.

I have a Mason BB in a carpeted room only 12' by 18' by 8'(it does open up into other rooms so I'd guess the effective space is around 50% larger), and I can play it very softly without ghost notes. But I've only been able to avoid ghost notes in the last six months when I made a simple but basic change in my technique.

"...Hi, anyone tried this using foam/insulation? Any success?...(it's an upright)..."

Markjitsu, you might have some luck reducing the sound you hear in the music room with foam, if it's too loud that way. I wouldn't put it right on the piano, but a few inches behind the soundboard. Uncoupling the piano from the floor (with acoustic casters, some thick carpet with foam padding, or an isolation platform) to keep from disturbing your neighbors might have some limited success.

You could start your research with the link below. There are many others; it's a big subject. You might see what Auralex and Piattino (brand names) have to say. I think you would find it less expensive and more satisfactory to buy a DP to play at the times when you can't play your AP, rather than building a soundproof piano booth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundproofing

"...It was BDB who was had his knickers in a twist..."

It is lucky that you are on different continents, Ando, so that you won't hire him to work on your piano through error. Personally, I think he and I might get along, though living across the Bay from each other is a little too far to hire him to work on my piano--- the commute would be expensive--- and anyway I already have a guy who does a fine job. What he says makes sense to me, though.

I don't know about whose knickers; BDB seems a bit more dispassionate and matter-of-fact, and is certainly very experienced and skilled. If you really want to see some people doing the cha-cha, nail some foam to their soundboard and step back so they can admire what you've done. Anyway, beating up on BDB is certainly not going to help your problems.

It's possible to take the help of the whole variety of suggestions. Between (1) selecting a piano that's right for your music room, (2) caring for it--- including regular tuning and regulation, and judicious voicing if and as needed, (3) finding the right position for it in the room, so that it sounds its best, (4) furnishing and/or treating the room to bring out its best acoustic properties while minimizing its faults, (5) increasing your skill as a performer, to get the best out of your instrument and its acoustic space, and (6) addressing tinnitus, if you have it, to conserve your hearing and avoid making your problem worse [that gets a separate six-point list of its own].

No room is perfect for every piano; no piano is perfect for every player; no player is perfect (because no human being is perfect); no showroom is perfect for every shopper. There's an infinite list of delinquencies, but do the best you can, try to enjoy your piano, have a happy holiday and a great next year, no matter where you are.

Just a suggestion.

Jeff, I've already addressed my sound issues using acoustic foam. It works perfectly - hence my defence of it as a valid option. I'm aware of every aspect you raised there - nothing was left unexplored, qualified techs included. The ultimate solution was the foam - and no, it wasn't stuck to the soundboard! BDB might seem dispassionate, but he is also highly dismissive. If you find that an admirable trait, well...

The "skill" component is not a factor. As I said above, if you play softer you might get the dynamic level that's comfortable, but there are tonal reasons why you might want to "dig in" a little more. To use the range of tone that the piano has, I found it better to insulate the back of the soundboard so I was getting sound primarily from the front. This allowed me to use the full tonal range of my piano without blasting my ears.

Aside from the precise placement, your comments about the use of acoustic foam seem to be perfectly aligned with mine.

Crogersrx, I'd love to see some photos - thanks!
Thanks everyone for all their advice!
Well, everyone who's actually aiming to be helpful anyway...

I just received my Edwards String Cover, and it works great. Thanks to some posters in this thread for suggesting them!

It's the same color felt as the felt in the piano, it's made well (it should be for the price) and it takes the edge off a large piano in a small room. It will make it more comfortable for me to practice for hours without getting audio fatigue. I like the sound with it in, and gives me more tonal options than I had before, it's quick to remove, or fold a portion of it over to get a different sound.

Also, with all the cats in the house, it will keep hair out of the piano, and protect it a bit if they crawl inside before I can stop them. (I keep the top closed when I'm not playing, but if I step away for a moment, they're quick to get in.)