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#1987866 - 11/17/12 04:46 PM Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
lluiscl Offline
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lluiscl  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 208
Hi. I am looking for a new light hammer heads and I'd need to know which is the less dense of these felts and its performance... (Ronsen can't be an option here).
Any input will be welcome.
All the best

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#1989385 - 11/21/12 01:25 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
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Sussexpianos Offline
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Sussex, England, UK
Would it not be easier to email them and ask the weights of the first and last? Bear in mind that weight does change as hammer moldings are made from wood which is inconsistent.

#1989469 - 11/21/12 04:46 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: Sussexpianos]  
Joined: Jul 2006
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lluiscl Offline
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lluiscl  Offline
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Posts: 208
Originally Posted by Sussexpianos
Would it not be easier to email them and ask the weights of the first and last? Bear in mind that weight does change as hammer moldings are made from wood which is inconsistent.

Thanks. Of course I can't get this information from the manufacturer. Usually hornbeam moldings are the heaviest and walnut the lightest (and mahogany in middle) but the felt density is (at same size) the crucial point here.

#1989476 - 11/21/12 05:00 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: Sussexpianos]  
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otherside Offline
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Ari Isaac's ?

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#1989563 - 11/21/12 08:24 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
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kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by lluiscl
Originally Posted by Sussexpianos
Would it not be easier to email them and ask the weights of the first and last? Bear in mind that weight does change as hammer moldings are made from wood which is inconsistent.

Thanks. Of course I can't get this information from the manufacturer. Usually hornbeam moldings are the heaviest and walnut the lightest (and mahogany in middle) but the felt density is (at same size) the crucial point here.


Maybe you could tell us what the real issue is and why you consider felt density to be of such importance? I think there may be variables you are not taking into account.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#1989659 - 11/22/12 04:35 AM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: kpembrook]  
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lluiscl Offline
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lluiscl  Offline
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I am finishing to restoring an old Bechstein grand which has a rocker-tied action which really I adore: the touch is very responsible and light (with DW of 50 grms) but it needs new hammers. Testing individually with different modern ones is clear for me that I need a softer/light hammer to sound and touch properly (I don't want to add leads -if its possible- or needling 30 times for note...).
I live in Europe so Abel natural's (never tested yet) or the newest Weickert Special felt from Renner (probably the best ones) are my chosen. Both make special hammers for old Bechstein's. Knowing real weight (not possible yet) ot felt density will help... Or may be anyone have tested them..?
All the best

#1989661 - 11/22/12 04:50 AM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
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beethoven986 Offline
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I've worked with both, and in my experience, both are going to require pre-needling. That's just how it is, unfortunately. Weight, if it's an issue, is easily taken care of via proper hammer prep (particularly tapering and coving).

#1989773 - 11/22/12 01:48 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
Joined: May 2011
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Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
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Bill McKaig,RPT  Offline
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Tampa, FL
I've used the Abel naturals and I would not consider them to be light hammers. They are very good, but they do require quite a bit of needling.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
#1989788 - 11/22/12 02:16 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
Joined: Mar 2007
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Steve Jackson Offline
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Steve Jackson  Offline
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Zichron Yaacov, Israel

I just regulated an old Bechstein E concert grand that I put
A. Isaac hammers on 25 years ago. Touchweight was not an issue and they matched the earlier hammers quite well. I've also used them on a few Bechstein B's. The Renner and Abel hammers are not manufactured in a way that will match the originals, no matter what you do.

Take care,

Steve

#1989790 - 11/22/12 02:19 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
Joined: Apr 2007
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rysowers Offline
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rysowers  Offline
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Posts: 3,166
Olympia, WA
Abel offers a recovering service - basically putting new felt on old moldings. This sounds like the most appropriate course for a that had very light hammers to begin with.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1989803 - 11/22/12 02:51 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: rysowers]  
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Posts: 208
lluiscl Offline
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lluiscl  Offline
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Posts: 208
Thanks a lot for your inputs. Yes, I agree Abel makes a good refelt work. My intention is to change also shanks and flanges (I have a semi-new set from Renner full compatible with the old ones) so new hammers is my choice. If I read correctly Weickert felt (made in Wurzen fabrik) was probably the original felt hammers in the most vintage german pianos (before WWII). I also read marvels about the recent ones (André Oorebeek included). Anyone has tested them? (named "Renner blue point" in USA)

#1989880 - 11/22/12 07:06 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: lluiscl]  
Joined: Sep 2003
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Del Offline
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Del  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,523
Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted by lluiscl
Thanks a lot for your inputs. Yes, I agree Abel makes a good refelt work. My intention is to change also shanks and flanges (I have a semi-new set from Renner full compatible with the old ones) so new hammers is my choice. If I read correctly Weickert felt (made in Wurzen fabrik) was probably the original felt hammers in the most vintage german pianos (before WWII). I also read marvels about the recent ones (André Oorebeek included). Anyone has tested them? (named "Renner blue point" in USA)

The felt is only a part of what determines the working characteristic of a set of piano hammers. Starting with Weikert felt a hammermaker can come up with a variety of weights and densities of hammers. Hammers using the same brand of felt can end up producing tone qualities that vary dramatically.

My favorite after-market hammers for pianos like the one you’ve described are made by Ronsen using Weikert felt—For some reason you’ve ruled them out.—but it would be quite easy to produce hammers using Weikert felt that were rock hard and completely unmusical. All that is needed is a lot of compression and heat.

On the other hand it is possible to make quite nice hammers using felt of lesser quality if the hammermaker is careful to control the shape of the felt strip, temperature, pressure, the amount of felt compression, etc. Don’t make your hammer selection based on felt alone; it is certainly important but it is not the only important criteria.

ddf


Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
#1989905 - 11/22/12 09:36 PM Re: Renner Weickert felt vs. Abel Natural [Re: Steve Jackson]  
Joined: Mar 2005
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Grandpianoman Offline
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Grandpianoman  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Steve, you echo what I have heard about Ari Isaac's hammers, years down the line, the hammers are still able to produce a great sound.

I am surprised that more techs are not using his hammers.

Recently, Ari Isaac was at my home to voice his Classical West hammers. I had invited any local PTG techs to come hear my 1927 M&H BB after Ari was finished voicing and tuning. Two techs were able to make it on short notice. One of them was starting a Steinway B rebuild. After hearing my piano, they asked Ari for a few samples, which he sent. They then ordered a full set for this Steinway. The end result now is that the tech is totally happy with the sound of the Steinway, adjectives they used to describe the sound, "amazing", "fabulous". The other tech was very impressed with the hammers.

I am extremely happy with his hammers, and his bass strings for that matter. The tone I have now is just fantastic.

It might be worth it to see if he can help you with your project.



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