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Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97] #1987250
11/15/12 10:04 PM
11/15/12 10:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 202
Md
M
manyhands Offline
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manyhands  Offline
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M

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 202
Md
the book was most helpful in my search for a used piano.
I learned about construction and wide variety of mfg.. No need to take it to the dealer but it served as a basis for my evaluation check list and helped narrow the brands I wanted to play. Thank you Mr Fine and consultants.!


many hands many smiles

Big Mama Yama U1
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
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Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: frog97] #1987538
11/16/12 05:17 PM
11/16/12 05:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
West side of the Globe
frog97 Offline OP
Full Member
frog97  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 82
West side of the Globe
I went home for lunch and my wife gave me the mail, the PW books I ordered where there. I can’t wait to dive into them and start reading, I bought on old hard copy and a new supplement to the book for 2012.



Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: schwammerl] #1987567
11/16/12 06:50 PM
11/16/12 06:50 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,789
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
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Originally Posted by schwammerl
One of the OP's questions was:

Quote
did it help to negotiate?


Before you start you need to know what you want to negotiate.

If it simply means price negotiation (in the U.S.) the book will certainly help as it gives a good initial orientation into the piano market and the pricing structure (or rather the lack of it).
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept.


Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus] #1987696
11/17/12 03:19 AM
11/17/12 03:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
Belgium
S
schwammerl Offline
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schwammerl  Offline
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Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.

Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: schwammerl] #1987719
11/17/12 08:30 AM
11/17/12 08:30 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,789
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,789
New York City
Originally Posted by schwammerl
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus] #1987734
11/17/12 09:42 AM
11/17/12 09:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,960
Northern VA, U.S.
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013
ClsscLib  Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,960
Northern VA, U.S.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by schwammerl
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.


If you understand in full the wants, needs, and capacities of all players in the bargaining process, you can work towards a deal that leaves everyone better off than they would be with no deal.


[Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins
Re: Piano Buyer / Larry Fine [Re: pianoloverus] #1988174
11/18/12 02:28 PM
11/18/12 02:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
D
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
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D

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by schwammerl
Quote
When people use "negotiate", I think 99% of the time they mean price. It's really not a complicated concept


That may well be so but then it is because those people do not know the difference between bargaining (uni-variant/zero-sum) and negotiating (multi-variant/positive-sum).

When wanting to acquire a piano - a high price ticket object who most people want to keep for a life time - it is more wise to make oneself familiar with the technique of negotiation. It takes some time to learn and master it but it is worth it; that is why diplomats spend years mastering the negotiation technique and why many people should try making oneself familiar with to should they not wish to rum from one buyer remorce to another.

example source : bargaining is not negotiating

schwammerl.
Although I will study the article when I have a chance, my first reaction is that very few people, including myself, most piano dealers and, even those who get the best deals on a piano they buy, know what some of the terms you mentioned in your reply mean.

I am sure it is something with which you are intrinsically familiar, even if you never bothered to put a "name" to it.

The idea is pretty simple. With a piano:

Bargaining: You are considering charging me "X". I want to pay a lesser value "Y". We work until we either find middle ground or we do not. In the end, what the seller loses (in price), the buyer gains (in savings). This is uni-variant, in that only one variable is considered. It is also zero-sum in that one person wins and the other loses.

Negotiating: You are selling piano "X". We bring into it tuning, regulation, repayment terms, loan/lease options, moving the piano, additional features (Dampp Chaser, etc), re-selling value, additional store credit, a bench, warranty terms, and any other number of variables you may be able to consider. This is multi-variant because there exists more than one variable. It is positive-sum because there is a chance that the buyer may "win" something that costs the seller "nothing", or may be willing to concede something of little costs that makes the seller's life easier.

Most commodity purchases do not have the option of being negotiated. Bargained, yes, but not negotiated. There typically are very few "win-win" variables. However, this poster is saying that if you can find any, you can (and should) change tactics from bargaining to negotiating.

One other key to negotiating: it is not time-bound. In other words, you can't have a one-time, short-lived experience with a seller and expect to be able to negotiate. Quite simply, you're not invested in each other's success long enough to truly equate potential gain. If you were leasing a car with an option to buy, and involving the company's loan department, now you have a longer-term situation in which negotiation can be utilized. But typical short-term and one-time commodity purchases with few selling options do not fall into this category.


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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