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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
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Define the words however you'd like. What I was saying is that in my example (E major arpeggios, scherzo 2) it is important to get the arpeggios seamless before washing it with pedal. As in, the jumps from each broken chord to the next shouldn't be noticed. So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato, just getting the transitions seamless. (which is best to perfect with no pedal) If one is using the pedal on the arpeggios then the only important thing is how they sound with the pedal. Trying to learn perfect finger legato for those passages is not particularly useful.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607 |
Define the words however you'd like. What I was saying is that in my example (E major arpeggios, scherzo 2) it is important to get the arpeggios seamless before washing it with pedal. As in, the jumps from each broken chord to the next shouldn't be noticed. So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato, just getting the transitions seamless. (which is best to perfect with no pedal) If one is using the pedal on the arpeggios then the only important thing is how they sound with the pedal. Trying to learn perfect finger legato for those passages is not particularly useful. Disagree disagree disagree.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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OP
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799 |
Define the words however you'd like. What I was saying is that in my example (E major arpeggios, scherzo 2) it is important to get the arpeggios seamless before washing it with pedal. As in, the jumps from each broken chord to the next shouldn't be noticed. So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato, just getting the transitions seamless. (which is best to perfect with no pedal) If one is using the pedal on the arpeggios then the only important thing is how they sound with the pedal. Trying to learn perfect finger legato for those passages is not particularly useful. Disagree disagree disagree. But what is your thinking about this? Can the passage not sound perfectly legato with the pedal even if one plays it in a the would not sound perfectly legato without the pedal?
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
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A. its not all about legato, B. its not all about sound. Yes sound is important, but so is how you move to create that sound. Just because it sounds right doesn't mean you're achieving it in the best way.
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
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A. its not all about legato, B. its not all about sound. Yes sound is important, but so is how you move to create that sound. Just because it sounds right doesn't mean you're achieving it in the best way. OK, but then the next question would be... how does playing without the pedal tell you more about if you're achieving the sound in the best way then playing with the pedal? (I know you're a lot busier with obligations than me, so I don't intend to endless followup questions) -------------------------------------------------------------- I'm hoping to get more comments from other posters because this method of practicing seems very important, at least to some.
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Joined: Mar 2010
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the longer I play/practise/perform, the less pedal I seem to use, depending on the size of venues/instrument/accoustics, but I just played some Schubert, and didn't use the pedal in the last 2 mov. of 960 at all, it worked.
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
2000 Post Club Member
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A. its not all about legato, B. its not all about sound. Yes sound is important, but so is how you move to create that sound. Just because it sounds right doesn't mean you're achieving it in the best way. OK, but then the next question would be... how does playing without the pedal tell you more about if you're achieving the sound in the best way then playing with the pedal? (I know you're a lot busier with obligations than me, so I don't intend to endless followup questions) -------------------------------------------------------------- I'm hoping to get more comments from other posters because this method of practicing seems very important, at least to some. Because the pedal obscures things, and makes certain things easier, or at least feel easier. It's really hard to explain in this way, so wonder piano teachers can charge so much money lol
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
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I think the bigger reason for starting off without pedal is to perfect getting the passage even, not necessarily perfect legato. Like in the E major arpeggio section of scherzo 2. It can be tricky to get even and can come out choppy if you don't perfect getting the arpeggios even, etc. If you just skip this step and rush the learning process it will most likely show.
"Even" usually refers rhythm. "Choppy" usually refers to legato as in not smooth. So it's not at all clear what you're trying to say here. Even can refer to how the notes don't all sound the same. Someone doing a c major arpegio who bangs the thumb every time, it could be described as an uneven sound Exactly.
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
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Define the words however you'd like. What I was saying is that in my example (E major arpeggios, scherzo 2) it is important to get the arpeggios seamless before washing it with pedal. As in, the jumps from each broken chord to the next shouldn't be noticed. So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato, just getting the transitions seamless. (which is best to perfect with no pedal) If one is using the pedal on the arpeggios then the only important thing is how they sound with the pedal. Trying to learn perfect finger legato for those passages is not particularly useful. I don't know why you're telling me this, since I basically said it in the paragraph you replied to. "So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato[...]"
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,799 |
Define the words however you'd like. What I was saying is that in my example (E major arpeggios, scherzo 2) it is important to get the arpeggios seamless before washing it with pedal. As in, the jumps from each broken chord to the next shouldn't be noticed. So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato, just getting the transitions seamless. (which is best to perfect with no pedal) If one is using the pedal on the arpeggios then the only important thing is how they sound with the pedal. Trying to learn perfect finger legato for those passages is not particularly useful. I don't know why you're telling me this, since I basically said it in the paragraph you replied to. "So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato[...]" You said the jumps shouldn't sound broken, but that's only true in regards to the sound with the pedal. The trouble with your posts is that you seem to contradict yourself. You said it's easier to get the passage to sound even(whether rhythmically or tonally)by practicing without the pedal, but you give no reason for this.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/14/12 07:51 PM.
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177 |
Define the words however you'd like. What I was saying is that in my example (E major arpeggios, scherzo 2) it is important to get the arpeggios seamless before washing it with pedal. As in, the jumps from each broken chord to the next shouldn't be noticed. So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato, just getting the transitions seamless. (which is best to perfect with no pedal) If one is using the pedal on the arpeggios then the only important thing is how they sound with the pedal. Trying to learn perfect finger legato for those passages is not particularly useful. I don't know why you're telling me this, since I basically said it in the paragraph you replied to. "So it's not really a matter of perfecting the finger legato[...]" You said the jumps shouldn't sound broken, but that's only true in regards to the sound with the pedal. The trouble with your posts is that you seem to contradict yourself. You said it's easier to get the passage to sound even(whether rhythmically or tonally)by practicing without the pedal, but you give no reason for this. Oh yeah, contradictions left and right. My bad! I didn't say it was "easier" to practice without pedal. If anything it's more difficult. I said that it's better to perfect seamless arpeggio transitions with no pedal before washing over it with pedal. Seamless arpeggios usually deals with not accenting any notes. It has nothing to do with perfect legato. GeorgeB summed it up better than I did. I think where I'm confusing you is that you probably think it's useless to practice without pedal if the intent isn't perfecting legato, which is understandable. But my reason for doing so is that I find it much easier to detect and correct bad arpeggiation when I'm not using pedal.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 103
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 103 |
Laugh if you must, but I often do the opposite. I start out with pedal and I reduce it bit by bit over time. In the end product, I often use as little pedal as possible.
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